So far on the play by post, I have only seen Vampire, Mage, and I think a Changeling game. While those are all good, I've never really been into them that much. Thats probably why I haven't tried to join those games. Note: that means that if you start up an Exalted or Werewolf game, I'll likely be one of the first to respond. Though we will have to deal without my having the book for the Werewolf game. I can never find a copy of it at any local game stores.
So, what I would like is to hear about everyone's experiences with and opinions of White Wolf's games. I look forward to reading your posts.
The World of Darkness corebook is used in conjunction with the core supernatural books to enable playing a specific supernatural type. A d10 dicepool based on Stat + Skill is rolled, with any die showing an 8 or higher providing a success. Difficulty is modified through added and subtracted dice before the roll.
Scion uses a slightly modified version of the Exalted system which, in turn, uses a heavily modified version of the older world of darkness system.
Do you have a specific question about one of the lines, the mechanics, or anything else?
Just as with any company that produces a wide variety of products - they're mixed.
The World of Darkness corebook is used in conjunction with the core supernatural books to enable playing a specific supernatural type. A d10 dicepool based on Stat + Skill is rolled, with any die showing an 8 or higher providing a success. Difficulty is modified through added and subtracted dice before the roll.
Scion uses a slightly modified version of the Exalted system which, in turn, uses a heavily modified version of the older world of darkness system.
Do you have a specific question about one of the lines, the mechanics, or anything else?
In my experiences, White Wolf is typically centered more around role playing than roll playing. Yes you can do some pretty broken stuff in it, but the fun to me comes from role play.
I have never played a White Wolf game. Lately though I have been looking to expand my horizons, and I figure I need to get a White Wolf game and probably run a duet or PbP campaign with it. The problem is that it is hard for me to assess White Wolf games. I am a roleplayer first, but I like most solid rules, but prefer less (or intuitive) rules that promote quick play. I just can assess them, flavor wise, they seem heavy angst/tragedy driven, which is good and bad. I mean I have run In Nomine, which I guess has a similar feel, and I do enjoy that. World of Darkness just I don't know, seems too angsty for me. Vampires and werewolves have never really interested me as they do other people. Seriously, I have like zero angst internally.
Exalted seems a little too anime-like for most of my players, and Scion sounds cool, but some reviews make me question if the game can pull off the concept of deific roleplay. So seeing how I am picky and annoying in my gaming prejudices what can people tell me about these White Wolf games? :DIf you're considering one of the splats in particular, perhaps one of my reviews would help? I've reviewed all of them.
I agree with KJW's assessment of some of the various White Wolf settings. Way too emo for me. Werewolf always seemed more natural and bestial to me, it had a slight Native American bent to it. Thats why it attracted me, but like I said. I can never find people to run it.
In my experiences, White Wolf is typically centered more around role playing than roll playing. Yes you can do some pretty broken stuff in it, but the fun to me comes from role play.
I completely disagree with the assessment of inherent role-playing. I think that many White Wolf games try to emphasize narrative play, or something to that effect. I mostly tried to play Mage: The Ascension and never really liked the WW trend of giving you awesome powers that you really couldnt use.
Of course, this trend varies from game to game, as Werewolf was pretty action-packed.
My main dislike for some WW games, namely Mage and Vampire, was that I wasnt sure exactly what the point of the game was. As a vampire, am I supposed to try and climb up political ladders until I become a prince of...what, Portland? Am I supposed to do maintain the masquerade for an undefined length of time. Why do I have the strength to hurl cars if I'm not supposed to do it?
It felt too open ended as to what theme the game should lean towards, as well as when the game should theoretically end.
I never got into the new WW renditions where things seemed to be more action-packed, or at least more lenient on using your abilities.
I already know how the game works, I've just neevr had the oppurtunity to play.
Cool. The way you lump Exalted and the World of Darkness together, and don't distinguish between editions, suggested to me that you might not, since the systems have many differences.
When you discuss Werewolf are you referring to Werewolf: The Apocalypse or Werewolf: The Forsaken?
Of course, we did have some very character-driven sessions (in that we did things and the narrative flowed from there, and grew organically), but I'm sure the same can be achieved in more plot-oriented games.
I wasn't a big fan of them, as a systems kinda guy - it just felt like it had much of the flaws of point buy without many of the advantages (like being able to make _really_ outlandish characters) and that there were too many loopholes... but that the system was so prominent for arbitrating actions that you couldn't just let it take a backseat to the roleplaying if that was your shtick (barring, of course, just ignoring the system or house ruling, which you can do for any game)
Effectively, I'd have been _much_ happier playing in their worlds (which are often very interesting) with some other system entirely... one with more freedom, less rules, or a more rigorous system.
P.S. Read Knight's response after mine, I was trying to correct my account posting.
Of Note:
The Old World of Darkness line
Trinity Universe
Exalted
Scion
The New World of Darkness line
And even a Streetfighter RPG
All of which use variations of the same game system, though the variations are such that they about as compatible as 3.5 is with 1st edition.
I've only ever used them to read - we ended up always playing in a modern setting (except once).
For example, flexible character creation, bonuses for taking suboptimal actions, extra dice for being descriptive or doing cool roleplay, rules light enough that you don't get wrapped up in them, etc.
I tend to find that people like to be somewhere between 'I am telling a freeform story with my friends' and 'I am playing a board game' so it's a tough balance to meet. My personal preference is for the system to either enable the story in certain ways... or to leave it alone. I then want the 'board game' side of the system to be fun and entertaining in its own right, without overwhelming the ability to roleplay while doing it.
That's my stance, though I'm not sure the argument is as lucid 'on paper' as it was in my head.
Cheers,
Keithric (who owns Theatrix and Amber, and watches them collect dust because his groups like more of that 'board game' in their RP)
Cool. The way you lump Exalted and the World of Darkness together, and don't distinguish between editions, suggested to me that you might not, since the systems have many differences.
When you discuss Werewolf are you referring to Werewolf: The Apocalypse or Werewolf: The Forsaken?
The Apocalypse is the only one I have actually read. And read, and read, and read. And read some more. I really liked the whole idea behind that. Forsaken I've not had a chance to read through very much.
I wanted to play Trinity and Aberrant, those both looked fun, but never had a chance to do more do a demo game of Trinity.
I never had a group I think Wraith would have been really good for, but it sounded... delicious... in premise. Still, you'd need the right group.
I think I own almost all the white wolf stuff other than wraith up to several years ago. Great ideas to be found in them.
The world is a semi-PA one (a section of mid-western US has been...altered by a supernatural phenomna and a few cities have been ruined by it) and all of the WoD style critters (Vampires, Werewolf, etc) have only been in existence since the supernatural event. Thus, there are no centuries old cabals of vampires because the oldest vamp has only been a vamp for about a year.
From a rules perspective, if you were to compare it to D&D 3.5, you would find the PCs start at the equivalent of level 4. One potential rules failing is a complete ignoring of any rules for wealth or money. Any equipment PCs may need is handled entirely through GM arbitration (the GM decides whether or not the PC has enough money to purchase something).
Unlike the regular World of Darkness games (both old and new), the primary assumption is that you'll be mingling your supernatural types in the same party (vampires and werewolves living together...mass hysteria!) Since the prejudices of the World of Darkness games are largely not present, this is more feasible than it sounds.
I'm planning on running a PbP eventually, but not until one of my current games wraps up and I've had a chance to more thoroughly read the book.
This is only a rough index of major game lines and does not include most supplementary material. It also does not include d20 products published through the Sword & Sorcery imprint.
Primary Source: RPG.net
1991
Vampire: The Masquerade (1st edition)
1992
Ars Magica (3rd edition) (previously published by Lion Rampant; subsequently published by Atlas Games)
Vampire: The Masquerade (2nd edition)
Werewolf: The Apocalyse (1st edition)
1993
Mage: The Ascension (1st edition)
1994
The Masquerade (LARP Rules, 2nd edition)
Streetfighter: The Storytelling Game
Werewolf: The Apocalypse (2nd edition)
Wraith: The Oblivion (1st edition)
1995
Changeling: The Dreaming (1st edition)
HoL: Human Occupied Landfill (through Black Dog imprint)
Mage: The Ascension (2nd edition)
1996
Vampire: The Dark Ages
Wraith: The Oblivion (2nd edition)
1997
Changeling: The Dreaming (2nd edition)
Trinity (Trinity Universe; first printing titled Aeon but recalled due to legal issues with MTV's Aeon Flux)
Werewolf: The Wild West
1998
Kindred of the East
Mage: The Sorcerer's Crusade
Vampire: The Masquerade (Revised edition)
1999
Aberrant (Trinity Universe)
Hunter: The Reckoning (1st edition)
Werewolf: Dark Ages
Wraith: The Great War
2000
Mage: The Ascension (Revised edition)
Werewolf: The Apocalypse (Revised edition)
2001
Adventure! (Trinity Universe)
Exalted (1st edition)
Mummy: The Resurrection
2002
Dark Ages: Inquisitor
Dark Ages: Mage
Dark Ages: Vampire
Demon: The Fallen (1st edition)
Victorian Age: Vampire
2003
Dark Ages: Werewolf
Orpheus
2004
Dark Ages: Fae
Vampire: The Requiem (1st edition)
World of Darkness ("New" World of Darkness)
2005
King Arthur Pendragon (5th edition) (previously published by Chaosium)
Mage: The Awakening (1st edition)
Mind's Eye Theatre (LARP Rules)
Werewolf: The Forsaken (1st edition)
2006
Exalted (2nd edition)
Promethean: The Created (1st edition)
2007
Changeling: The Lost (1st edition)
Monte Cook's World of Darkness (d20 3.5)
Scion: Hero
Scion: Demigod
2008
Scion: God
Like most games, I've found it really depends on the group. Yes, Vampire attracts a certain "angsty" element to it, which is why I always said I loved the game, but hated the players!
White Wolf even acknowledged it somewhat in a book somewhere (don't remember exactly where):
"Things to have angst over:
Killing someone.
Killing anyone.
Things not to have angst over:
Scratching your custom paint job.
Running out of caseless ammo."
I thought it was funny.
Anyways, I don't agree that one system encourages roleplaying more than "rollplaying". I actually hate that term, a lot.
There were plenty of munchkin players in my oWoD games - people who would min/max like crazy and want to take over the world with their kewl powerz - people who just wanted to come in and roll dice, etc.
What White Wolf did have was a more elaborate social system (it took your "CHA" and made it 3 stats, had social skills, etc), and I find many people think social playing is interchangeable with role playing. That's a concept with which I don't agree.
I totally understand where Antioch is coming from in terms of the lack of guidance for story in WW. It's one of the main flaws, IMHO. It's a great big wide world, but there's not a lot of point to most of the stuff. And with no level to be a guide, games can just run on boringly forever. The other main flaw is the bookwork required to provide challenges for the characters, which is a flaw inherent in any skill-based system.
I think the best WW games have a finite story.
I always want to play WW games after I finish watching some moder-day magical movie/TV show:
Constantine
The Lost Room
Pan's Labrynth
Dresden Files
Angel
I think Angel was a great WoD campaign.
My favorite oWoD game was Changeling, but I only got to play for a few games.
I played/ran a lot of Vampire and Mage (Mage less so, because it really was a complicated magic system and many players couldn't keep up with others who "got it"). Werewolf: the Apocolypse never really interested me. I ran a Wraith: the Oblivion game once, and (most of) my players thought it was awesome - one hated it because he thought I cheated him, which I didn't, but that's a whole different story.
Of the new World of Darkness stuff, I've run the intro scenarios for Vampire, Mage, and Werewolf. Werewolf is fantastic! I had a ton of fun with it - I liked their blending of the spiritual with reality, and I liked that Werewolves weren't "the good guys", fighting for Gaia - they gave them a nice nasty edge. They did a great job with Mage with the rotes - making it easier for non-intuitive use of the system, and I really really like the revamp of the Awakening, Paths, and Wisdom. It makes so much more sense now for Mages to work together (in the Ascension, if another player "won" [brought about Ascension], your magic wouldn't work.). Vampire was cool, I liked the paring-down of all the clans, and we all laughed at the Vampire Sheriff who ran around in leather pants and a poet shirt.
I really like the WoD as a setting, and I think the new WoD is better mechanically, though it has lost a lot of mystery of the older systems. While I was often frustrated at "GM discretion" that was often called into play with many of the oWoD rules, I think I miss a little of the mystery for players.
I'm running a PbP Mage/Changeling game (mostly because those are the settings that most interested me at the time), and while it fell off for a bit there, it seems to be picking up pace. I hope that you can watch my game and get a little excited about the WoD. :D
I try to keep my table top games episodic - short story arcs that will connect to the whole - mainly because overarching stories tend to fall apart (in any system). WW works well, IMO, if you have an 'end game' in mind, and work little things leading up to it. The PbP game is my first PbP, so I'm trying to figure out how to make it work.
Though characters in skill-based systems can go on forever, it usually gets boring or silly to continue on after finishing a story.
Oh, and I like that Werewolf: the Forsaken shortens to "W:tF", though abbreviating Mage: the Awakening and Mage: the Ascension can get confusing. :P
KillerGM: Oh, and I like that Werewolf: the Forsaken shortens to "W:tF"
Oh my God. I never even noticed that.
I think the biggest difficult in running a WoD game is that you REALLY have to a good story teller. You have to have an active plot in mind and worked out in advance, yet be flexible enough to account for player actions taken along the way. I think you need to do this to a far greater degree than you do in with DnD, though thats my personal opinion and could be quite wrong.
What could help people out is if a bunch of us got together and did a "GM'S Guidlines" sort of thing. Figuring out a good formula for tracking what "level" your party is at, and creating good stat blocks for NPCs of these various "levels" see D20 Modern's Friends and Foes section or the D20 Menace Manual for an example of what I am talking about. An online quide we could look to when planning things out would be a great help. "Ok, it says here my players are approximately x level, so I could use these stats for the cultists I am going to have them face." It would be time intesive for us, but very rewarding in the long run I think. It would address the point KillerGM and Antioch brought up about a lack of guidance.
Oh my God. I never even noticed that.
I think the biggest difficult in running a WoD game is that you REALLY have to a good story teller. You have to have an active plot in mind and worked out in advance, yet be flexible enough to account for player actions taken along the way. I think you need to do this to a far greater degree than you do in with DnD, though thats my personal opinion and could be quite wrong.
What could help people out is if a bunch of us got together and did a "GM'S Guidlines" sort of thing. Figuring out a good formula for tracking what "level" your party is at, and creating good stat blocks for NPCs of these various "levels" see D20 Modern's Friends and Foes section or the D20 Menace Manual for an example of what I am talking about. An online quide we could look to when planning things out would be a great help. "Ok, it says here my players are approximately x level, so I could use these stats for the cultists I am going to have them face." It would be time intesive for us, but very rewarding in the long run I think. It would address the point KillerGM and Antioch brought up about a lack of guidance.
That's the biggest flaw in any skill-based system, though - you don't really have a "CR" rating for things.
I mean, I could have a party with a character with maxed out Dex + Firearms, and one with nothing. The idea of a "standard threat" just doesn't apply.
Now, I think making various "threats" might be a good idea, and leave it to the Storyteller to decide what's appropriate.
Also, maybe some articles/blogs about story arcs and episodic games - this, I think, is the number one reason games fall apart in any system. I've seen it so many times (and have had it happen to me so many times): a GM has a great over-arching storyline to take you from the beginning of the game to the end, and it usually falls apart somewhere in the middle, regardless of system.
I've never had a problem with the "I can't really be a Vampire" in the games, because I've found that you can be a vampire/werewolf/etc. I guess my WoD resembles Angel/Buffy/the Dresden Files more than anything.
I started running Mage: the Sorcerer's Crusade a week after I started playing. THAT was a crazy complicated and broken system!! But, it taught me a lot about how to improvise and work with what the players decide to do.
The storyteller system relies on the skill of the Storyteller to be successful. The game system is a very unreliable framework for guaging challenges. It requires a much more "eyeball and improvise" approach.
The other element of the equation is player expectations. In found in my campaigns that those who "got" World of Darkness and the style of game it was intended to be were those who had never played D&D, thus avoiding the expectations that come with it.
In order to really embrace WoD, one has to leave the D&D mindset and style of play behind. Most of my best WoD sessions were ones where dice never clattered to the table.
I've heard extensive discussions about Changeling on the podcast All Games Considered, and it sounds like it would be fun, and I've often wondered how compatible Vampire, Changeling, and Werewolf would be, given that creatures from all three appear in the others.
The other element of the equation is player expectations. In found in my campaigns that those who "got" World of Darkness and the style of game it was intended to be were those who had never played D&D, thus avoiding the expectations that come with it.
This is important. Though I'd rather have dice hit the table, it does require a different mindset than D&D. All too often people are disappointed with the WoD because it wasn't what they were expecting.
I was disappointed with D&D because it wasn't what I thought it should be, until I left my expectations of from WW behind.
When I look at White Wolf games...I draw a blank. They seem part drama, part intrigue, and whatever constitutes as a political campaign.
I remember trying to play Vampire on a couple occasions, and things didnt really hash out for us as we tried to figure out pretty much what we were supposed to be doing in the game. Me and a friend even tried to go overboard and have Caine return in some kind of apocalyptic campaign that we never got off the ground due to lack of interest. Mainly, a lot of our games integrated lots of action, but ultimately fell by the wayside as we went back to games that seemed to have a better identity (D&D, Shadowrun, Rifts, and d6 Star Wars).
Of course, as Cobalt has stated, you might just NEED to have a really good referee to run the show, but if thats the case I cant see the games being very popular since experience is a necessity. I can have fun in amateur D&D games, but I really cant remember any "good times" in any White Wolf game.
One of my primary dislike of skill- or point-based systems (which includes Shadowrun, White Wolf games, and stuff from Fuzion) is that you can all too easily maximize a select few skills or attributes and gradually become godlike in power while the rest of the party just sucks, having gone "god mode" in their own specific areas. Try to throw a guy at the party, and whoever has the super-buffed melee/ranged skill is going to either end up having it too easy (in which case some of the party can contribute to hitting the guy) or about average (in which case basically no one else can).
This applies to a LOT of situations, and not just combat, and I remember it happening most often in D6 Star Wars and Shadowrun, since those were the two skill-based games that I played the most. I had Blaster, Dodge, and some other skills at like, 12d6, meaning that I could pretty much shoot anything I felt like. The only way to make things hard was to have the NPC really, REALLY hard to hit, in which case almost no one could hit them BUT me.
I like level-based systems because they allow you to shine in your specialty, but not so much that the only recourse to challenge you is to make it impossible for the rest of the gang to contribute.
How do you deal with whichever situations come up? How does your personality evolve?
In a political game, you have to go around and subtly influence whoever you need to climb the greasy pole.
The point of the games has never been (to us, at least) to integrate "lots of action", because we didn't want an action game. Being a Vampire is not about using all the flashy powers every five seconds - it's about dealing with the Beast that constantly torments you and slowly eats away at you and makes you lose yourself.
I have read about people playing up all the cool powers, but that was never what attracted me to any White Wolf game.
Advanced GMing techniques come in handy when dealing with the combat heavy and the socialite...Cut Scenes, Flashbacks, Foreshadowing, etc.
Imagine, for example, the masquerade ball in which the newly formed vampire coterie must present itself to the Prince. The small group's Toreador acts as the group's voice, regaling the haughty 16th century warrior with tales of their Brujah's combat prowess and exploits.
While she is doing that and making social rolls, the other players participate in seperate flashbacks. The Tremere, hours earlier, conducts research about the Prince, finding the information the Toreador will need to use to impress the Prince. And, several days earlier, the Brujah fights a gang of ghouls, sent by a rogue Nosferatu to assassinate him.
In a "normal" linear GMing style, each scene would have two very bored players. Playing them all at once keeps each player having fun doing what their character does best, with the GM cutting back and forth between the scenes at appropriately dramatic moments.
I think Crazy Monkey's example of a group all doing different things at once and being bounced back and forth actually hits dead center why Vampire didn't work with groups I'm in... you just have a lot of people who are bored.
I'd much rather have one guy talking with the DM and _at least_ the others able to roleplay amongst themselves, but if you're all literally separated there's little you can do except get distracted. It works fine in some cases, especially if you know you're going to be doing 'solo' stuff and can just not have people show up all together, but not only am I less big on just observing other people play for long stretches of time... in a game of Vampire you often _specifically_ shouldn't be because you're not really working together as much as you are in many other games.
In Mage or Werewolf, people split up, but it was still much more of a team atmosphere.
I wish I know why other people weren't as interested in Changeling. I suspect they got abused by an overly childish game... still, especially for someone with children I'd think it'd be a good pick to at least check out.
Changeling: the Dreaming was a game about hope. WW had said over and over that it was the "shining light" in the World of Darkness.
This didn't appeal to most WoD players, mostly because they wanted a World of Darkness.
I think many people took C:tD way too lightly, playing up the silly and childish (rather than childlike) aspects of the game.
I loved it. I only got to play in a few games, but I loved the setting. I like C:tL, but it hasn't given me the same feel as when I picked up the C: the Dreaming book the first time.
On the solo vs group: V:tM taught me how to divide up time between players so that they wouldn't get bored. I was horrible at it in the beginning, and then finally resorted to a stopwatch - I made myself give each player only 5 minutes at a time. Whenever the 5 minutes was up, I moved on to the next player. It worked for my groups over the years - 5 minutes seems to be the limit most people are willing to watch a single person, with only 15 minutes of wait between their "turns". And, as long as I kept it interesting for the other players, everyone was happy. I also encouraged everyone to be prepared for their turn during others' turns - you don't want to waste your 5 minutes with rules research.
One of my longest groups was like a machine - every wheel turning independently, but making the whole story progress. It was very cool when it worked! :D
I kinda wish I'd picked up some of the more recent WoD books to see how they compare... lot of things higher on my list I suspect, though.
I've heard extensive discussions about Changeling on the podcast All Games Considered, and it sounds like it would be fun, and I've often wondered how compatible Vampire, Changeling, and Werewolf would be, given that creatures from all three appear in the others.
I just noticed this post, and have already thought about it.
All of them could work together (including Mage!), but there are significant differences that make it difficult to include things to keep all parties interested.
I look at it this way, in a certain order:
Vampire: One World (the "real world")
Werewolf: Two Worlds ("real world" & spirit world)
Changeling: Two Worlds ("real world" & faerie realm)
Mage: Six Worlds (the "real world" & 5 supernal realms)
Each gets more complicated in terms of what the characters can interact with - Vampires can't really deal with spirits, Werewolves can't really deal with Fae, Changelings can't deal with Ghosts, etc.
And then there are in-game reasons the supernaturals wouldn't interact that much, though it's much less than the previous editions (Vampires & Werewolves killed each other on site, Changelings could "die" just by being near a Vampire for too long, etc). A Werewolf just wouldn't be welcome in Elysium, and a Vampire would probably be thrown out of a Freehold.
I think it can be done (see Buffy and Angel for really good examples), but it takes a lot of work, and all the characters have to be at least somewhat removed from the other supernaturals of their type.
Basically, yes, they can all work together by the rules. But, like most things in WW, it takes a lot of work to make it make sense.**
In my current PbP campaign, I've allowed Mages and Changelings, because I think those are the two groups that can work together with the least amount of work. Vampires can really slow the game down because they can only act at night, and part of the Werewolf mentality is that of a Werewolf pack - which is pretty much an "all or nothing" kind of thing.
The Mage/Changeling combo seems to be working, however.
**I'm going to be making a new post expanding on that. Hang on. :P
I think a big part of what I learned from running WW games is the importance of internal consistency. Since there were no "mass creatures", every NPC had individual reasoning and logic and motivations.
This leads to less of the "He's doing it because he's Evil!" and more "He's doing it because if you succeed, he'll be able to knock you down a peg with the blackmail material and then use a favor to move closer to the Prince."
One thing I've found in D&D is that the races really annoy me (I was having this discussion in Astrid's Parlor the other day). Races being all-female or all-Evil just don't make sense to me.
White Wolf puts a lot of thought into the machinations of its beings, and there's usually a reason for most everything (even if it doesn't look like it at the time).
As a GM, that's what I took away the most from WW games, I think - believable, consistent NPC behavior.
Now, not all NPCs are logical, but there is always a consistency.
Consistency, consistency, consistency!! The world makes sense.
When you have characters who can bend reality with their will in much more powerful and amazing ways than "I throw X fireballs a day", there has to be a very consistent world that players can affect.
I hate Wizards (the D&D class), because I "grew up" playing Mage, where you can do anything, all day. Vancian spellcasting is so counter-intuitive for me, and I have no desire to have to work with a spellbook. I play Sorcerers a lot because I like magic, and they're as close to Mages as I can get. :P
I am often baffled by the distinction between types of magic as well - Arcane/Divine, Cleric/Druid, Bard/Wizard, etc. In Mage, anyone can have any power. Now, some groups are innately better at some types of mage, but it's all from the same source, which is to say, it's all from no source.
In Mage: the Ascension, perception was reality. Where you believed your magic came from is where it came from. How you believed magic worked is how it worked. I loved that. You could have a "D&D-type Wizard" next to a street shaman, and they'd both be able to cast the same "spell". Like I said before, though, this led to the problem that when one group "won" by bringing about Ascension for the world and taking control of the paradigm, all the other groups' magic wouldn't work anymore.
And I loved the Technocracy!!
Mage: the Awakening is a little more defined (magic comes from the Supernal Realms), but it's still up to the player to decide how s/he accesses the magic and how it manifests. WW also defined some "rotes" (common spells), which I think helps get new players, or players more familiar with D&D magic, up to speed. But it still leaves it wide open for the more experienced and/or intuitive players to cause chaos.
I think that's another thing about the old magic systems in Mage and Changeling (in particular): a big part was you either "got it" or you didn't. And, unlike in D&D, you couldn't progress and make a survivable character without really "getting it". There's no BAB or armor or HP to get you by on level alone.
I've had some "armchair historians" fall because they focused solely on their original skills.
That's another thing about WW games, and all skill-based games: there is no innate survivability to characters, the players have to know to raise those skills. I usually advise people to take combat skills to at least a survivable level on their characters.
Still I am intrigued by WW, though I feel it is one of those RPGs you need to play in first, before GMing. So that is a difficulty, but I have to wait till my next gaming allowance anyway.
HA! Wussies!! I ran Mage a week after I started playing roleplaying games at all! I had no idea what I was doing, but I ran it!
And it was Mage: the Sorcerer's Crusade, so it was even crazier!!
[/back in my day]
;)
My first Play-by-Post and my first time being the Storyteller. :P
Vampire: One World (the "real world")
Werewolf: Two Worlds ("real world" & spirit world)
Changeling: Two Worlds ("real world" & faerie realm)
Mage: Six Worlds (the "real world" & 5 supernal realms)
I don't think that is completely accurate. Certainly if this is how you look at it you will see problems.
Vampires can't deal with spirits... Says who? The typical vampire doesn't know how to but they are not excluded from the ability to do so. If a player or storyteller wanted a vampire to be able to interact with spirits it can easily be done within the rules without housing ruling anything. I would have to dig through my list but I believe there is actually a bloodline that does just that.
Werewolves interact with the spirit world and can go there easily. That does not means others can't go there. Mages can easily walk anywhere a Uratha can go and further. As could a vampire.
And you forgot one very important connection between Changelings and Mages. The changeling "faerie world" you mention is Arcadia. One of the 5 Supernal Realms is Arcadia. Same place (White Wolf themselves even pointed this out). Mages are constantly trying to reach the Supernal Realms and they would love to interact with someone who has been there (even if it is not their personal realm).
There is a certain amount of distinction made so it is not assumed that all the settings MUST be there to have a complete world. That was one of the flaws of the OWoD and WW works hard to maintain each game line in the NWoD as a modular piece that may be incorporated or ignored as the gaming group sees fit. However, if a group decides they exist together WW has provided dozens and dozens and dozens of connections to make them all work together. I am honestly a bit in shock that you missed those connections because we could post for days about them.
On the other subject WW games definitely needs a more experienced storyteller/GM/DM running the game. Not because the game is any more advanced but for the reasons provided already. D&D is made to be formulaic in design (which provides freedom elsewhere and more bang for your buck imho) while WW games can really be anything you want them to be and a lot is left outside the rules for that reason.
I don't think that is completely accurate. Certainly if this is how you look at it you will see problems.
Vampires can't deal with spirits... Says who? The typical vampire doesn't know how to but they are not excluded from the ability to do so. If a player or storyteller wanted a vampire to be able to interact with spirits it can easily be done within the rules without housing ruling anything. I would have to dig through my list but I believe there is actually a bloodline that does just that.
Werewolves interact with the spirit world and can go there easily. That does not means others can't go there. Mages can easily walk anywhere a Uratha can go and further. As could a vampire.
And you forgot one very important connection between Changelings and Mages. The changeling "faerie world" you mention is Arcadia. One of the 5 Supernal Realms is Arcadia. Same place (White Wolf themselves even pointed this out). Mages are constantly trying to reach the Supernal Realms and they would love to interact with someone who has been there (even if it is not their personal realm).
There is a certain amount of distinction made so it is not assumed that all the settings MUST be there to have a complete world. That was one of the flaws of the OWoD and WW works hard to maintain each game line in the NWoD as a modular piece that may be incorporated or ignored as the gaming group sees fit. However, if a group decides they exist together WW has provided dozens and dozens and dozens of connections to make them all work together. I am honestly a bit in shock that you missed those connections because we could post for days about them.
You seemed to have taken that section too far and not read the rest of my post. I expect pedantry because this is the internet, but please try to read the rest of what I wrote.
Yes, they can work together - but it does take some extra work (finding the bloodline that can work with spirits, for example - I have no doubt there's one, just like I'm sure there's one for speaking with potted plants. I hate bloodlines.
). It is difficult to keep all parties involved if you just take a "typical" Vampire and drop him into a Werewolf-heavy game.Can others cross over into the realms? Yes, but they are not equipped as characters to deal with the things on the other side, or when those things cross over here. In general. This can lead to very boring games for players who weren't properly prepared for such a game.
I was talking in generalities. Yes, the Spirit World and the Faerie Realm are the same for Mages. But Changelings still can't deal with Spirits, in a general sense, and Werewolves can't deal with Fae.
I never said I had problems, or that it can't be done, I just said it required more work. I also said I'm running a game with Changelings and Mages, mostly because I found them easiest to work together.
And saying "use a houserule" doesn't make it any less true, because you can houserule anything.
For example, flexible character creation, bonuses for taking suboptimal actions, extra dice for being descriptive or doing cool roleplay, rules light enough that you don't get wrapped up in them, etc.
The reason I prefer the white wolf system to most others (and I'm talking World of Darkness and Exalted) is that it gives me all of those things.
Played the original masquerade, and Antioch seems to share my opinion of it. Although it's cool to be a vampire in modern times, if you play it the way it seems to be written, you're not supposed to BE a VAMPIRE in modern times...so it's not as much fun as it could be.
I'd disagree. You could play a vampire from the majority of books and movies. No, you couldn't chuck cars around or tell the world you were a vampire on live TV, but at that point you're not - thematically speaking - playing a vampire but a superhero in sunglasses and gothy trench coat.
The Bunny Resistance has dug a burrow in this thread that leads to a secret Warren on this forum. Please, don’t tell the Glee_Monkey or his minions that we are here! If you have any supplies, information, or really anything that could help us we would really, really appreciate it!
Members of this Bunny Resistance Cell:
KJW
One of the greatest things that I liked about the old World of Darkness is that the source books actually had the "Golden Rule." That was I'm the Storyteller/Game Master/Gaming Operations Director (GOD)/ I MAKE THE RULES ALL DECISIONS ARE FINAL. Basically it outright stated that the GM runs things and even if you have read every supliment and rule, we are here to be entertained and have fun as a group, so if I say you can't do X (because I honestly have nothing else planned if you do and we spend 4 hours trying to either pull something new out of thin air or watching Pretty In Pink and The Breakfast Club again over our pizza ...) X does not happen.
Also does any one know how the Monte Cook's WOD for D20 is system wise. Does it have Mage's dynamic sphere magic? I can bring back oWOD's Assencion War if it does, or does it expect me to use the magic spells from DnD PhB and not make up my own on the fly? Does it have Paradox?
Also I am trying to figure out a way to run InNomine for D20 so that I can cross it into other back drops. Opinions? Questions? Suggestions? Happy to hear them.
Monte Cook's WoD magic works in two steps. First, Mages get what about to bonus metamagic feat, which the games calls gnosis. The also have components, which work somewhat like psionic power points, in that they are used to power spells. As for the spells themselves, there is a section on improvising magic and creating new rotes (spells), then a list of standard rotes. I'm not sure how the system works out in actual play. Several rotes have variants listed, which appear to work rather like augmenting psionic powers.
You seemed to have taken that section too far and not read the rest of my post. I expect pedantry because this is the internet, but please try to read the rest of what I wrote.Nope, I read everything you wrote and I understood it just fine.Yes, they can work together - but it does take some extra work (finding the bloodline that can work with spirits, for example - I have no doubt there's one, just like I'm sure there's one for speaking with potted plants. I hate bloodlines.
The Bloodlines was the extreme example. The more common answer, which you should know as someone who runs NWoD, is for a character to take one of the Mediumistic merits. Those are part of the core rules and available to all characters. So if you want a character to be able to interact with Spirits then you spend a couple points at character creation to do so. I don't really consider that too much work at all.Can others cross over into the realms? Yes, but they are not equipped as characters to deal with the things on the other side, or when those things cross over here. In general. This can lead to very boring games for players who weren't properly prepared for such a game.
I am actually seeing a theme here running through your post and I have an honest question. Before running a chronicle do you give your players any kind of guidelines for what kind of chronicle you are going to be running? Or do you let them create whatever they want and then design whatever chronicle you want and then work to push them together? Each is a different style and I am beginning to think you use the second style which would most definitely a good deal more work on your part, I agree.
I sit in the other spectrum myself. If I am going to run a story with a heavy spirit presence I tell my players that during character creation. Most of the heavy lifting will be accomplished during character creation using this method and I free myself to focus on the chronicle's story rather than the logistics of how the group will manage to ever get to where I want to nudge them to go.
I want to emphasize I don't think your style is wrong. I just don't do things that way and I am getting the impression you do. Looking for clarification so I can understand your point of view.And saying "use a houserule" doesn't make it any less true, because you can houserule anything.
I never said using a house rule makes it any less true. I thought we were examining the setting and the system as is. Housing Ruling means a change to the rules and if those are the guidelines for a discussion then there really is no point in having a discussion.
I was countering the opinion of "there are significant differences that make it difficult to include things to keep all parties interested" which I don't believe is true at all especially if you take more control during character creation. All I am saying is I disagree with you on that point. Believe me, I read your whole post.
:D
The best part of MCWoD is the setting though. Ah, I wish Monte was still working on game books and would have been around to support this one. This is one of the best "one shot" setting books in existence (meaning only a single book is put out for the game line).
The Bloodlines was the extreme example. The more common answer, which you should know as someone who runs NWoD, is for a character to take one of the Mediumistic merits. Those are part of the core rules and available to all characters. So if you want a character to be able to interact with Spirits then you spend a couple points at character creation to do so. I don't really consider that too much work at all.
And the Spirit Realm was just an example. I was just saying in that instance, it takes more effort than just plopping players down and saying "GO!" Not that it was impossible, or that it can't be done.
I am actually seeing a theme here running through your post and I have an honest question. Before running a chronicle do you give your players any kind of guidelines for what kind of chronicle you are going to be running? Or do you let them create whatever they want and then design whatever chronicle you want and then work to push them together? Each is a different style and I am beginning to think you use the second style which would most definitely a good deal more work on your part, I agree.
I sit in the other spectrum myself. If I am going to run a story with a heavy spirit presence I tell my players that during character creation. Most of the heavy lifting will be accomplished during character creation using this method and I free myself to focus on the chronicle's story rather than the logistics of how the group will manage to ever get to where I want to nudge them to go.
I want to emphasize I don't think your style is wrong. I just don't do things that way and I am getting the impression you do. Looking for clarification so I can understand your point of view.
LMAO. Actually, I'm more of the former style, which I guess was the point I was making - in nWoD, it benefits you greatly to do a some extra work and have an understanding of the themes in your campaign, and explain that to players before-hand. Then, they have to do the work of making a character that can work with those themes.
That's the point I was trying to make. It's very difficult to get a bunch of people together and say "Make up characters, anything you want" and have it work together, without making the effort to work them together.
I never said using a house rule makes it any less true. I thought we were examining the setting and the system as is. Housing Ruling means a change to the rules and if those are the guidelines for a discussion then there really is no point in having a discussion.
I was countering the opinion of "there are significant differences that make it difficult to include things to keep all parties interested" which I don't believe is true at all especially if you take more control during character creation. All I am saying is I disagree with you on that point. Believe me, I read your whole post. :D
And with this response, I believe it. The part that you quoted and harped on was an extremely simplified version of what I was saying in the rest of the post.
We're actually saying the same thing - you have to take extra effort (control during character creation, as you put it) to make the different supernaturals work together with cohesion. It's difficult, meaning you have to put more effort into it, but the system is designed to work across the supernaturals.
Thanks for clarifying!
The point of the game, for me, is to play interesting characters with a complicated internal conflict: you are a monster - how do you deal with it?
How do you deal with whichever situations come up? How does your personality evolve?
In a political game, you have to go around and subtly influence whoever you need to climb the greasy pole.
The point of the games has never been (to us, at least) to integrate "lots of action", because we didn't want an action game. Being a Vampire is not about using all the flashy powers every five seconds - it's about dealing with the Beast that constantly torments you and slowly eats away at you and makes you lose yourself.
I have read about people playing up all the cool powers, but that was never what attracted me to any White Wolf game.
Gotta Jump In on this great Discussion.
Knight I agree 100% with you.
Being a writer and teller of tales at heart My teams really never liked D&D and the mechanics, it didn't challenge our RP skills all that much and we like Lots of challenge. Despite my efforts there was always the nagging fact that one could simply just roll a bluff or knowledge check instead of actual RP. :P
We have since switched to Ascendence Cataclysm and Scion series books. Scion was hard for me to grasp at first never having played another system i was used to d20's highly mathmatic approach of dice rolling taking the front. but after about 5 re reads front to back I finally grasped the nuances :D.
My team asked me to run a game and we jumped right in with Scion: Hero we loved it and now run a massive and epic campeign with the 3rd book Scion god.
This brings me to Knights very accurate point
it's about dealing with the Beast that constantly torments you and slowly eats away at you and makes you lose yourself.
My team took a while but finally realized how the system reigns you into the world with fatebinding and the like. Sure they were reckless at first but then they realized every skyscraper they tore down with thunder bolts cost thousands lives, jobs and even worse. Things don't go without notice, though any DM in d20 enforces this it's much more front and center with WW i find.
With Scion it's not so much the beast but your duty to your godly parent, power and influence of that magnitude can wreak havoc on any mortals sense of "world reality"
Soon enough players thought about abusing their godly powers, and started to RP with more depth, they loved the challenge since every turn posed the same problem with a new twist. Sure your the child of a god and have superhuman powers, but when is it proper to use those powers, and when are you risking human lives?
Some of My best tales happened with Scion and still do, it's not easy however to jump into, as storyteller it's more in depth, and it takes me on average MUCH longer to prep for a scion game then d20 but the pay off? totally worth it
If your on the fence about White Wolf I say buy a core book and read it, then try to get a game going with a storyteller whos been around for a few games. if it's not your cup of tea well cool. I started with Scion and never turned back.
Further I never got the chance to play other games, several of my team played Vampire series games or changeling but I was never fortunate enough to sit in and observe them so I can't comment there but I hope to be able to fit the core books into my collection at some point.
partially the Reason I'm sellin my d20 gear is cause we really only get to play Scion. every time I ask the team " Ok People what do I prep this week d20, cataclysm or Scion?" it's always Scion, 60% of the time or Cataclysm the rest.
Hmmm, it would be interesting to see a game that uses both rules, switching from one to the other depending on whats going on. Though it would take a lot of work to integrate the two.