"If You Take The Attack Action" - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Goober4473 Jan 13, 2015 21:27:20	Several abilities, such as the Monk's Martial Arts, two-weapon fighter, and the Shield Master feat allow you to take a bonus action under the condition that you use the Attack action on your turn. My question is, when can you take the bonus action? The description for bonus actions specifies that you choose when to take it, unless timing is specified. Does this mean you can declare an Attack action, then, before making any attacks, use your bonus action? Essentially, could you make an off-hand attack, monk martial arts attack, or shield shove before/between your regular attack(s)?
#2 Undrhil Jan 13, 2015 22:47:52	In general, yes. Note that the Monk's Flurry of Blows says "...immediately after..." which means that you would not be able to move between using the Attack action and making the bonus action flurry of blows. However, for the Martial Arts bonus action attack and the TWF bonus action attack, you can move between the Attack action and the bonus action, if you want or need.
#3 RCanine Jan 14, 2015 2:30:21	I don't know how well the rules support before. I would allow it, but once you take that bonus action, you're commited; if the TWF bonus attack kills your target and nothing else is within reach, you can't use your action for something else.
#4 Yunru Jan 14, 2015 3:58:54	You have to take the attack action first. You don't, however, have to make any of the attacks first.
(Reply to #4) FrogReaver	Yunru wrote:
(Reply to #5) AaronOfBarbaria	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #6) FrogReaver	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#8 FrogReaver Jan 14, 2015 11:16:39	So I think my issue is: what the heck do yall think "taking the attack action" means. I think taking the attack action includes its total resolution including all extra attacks that are allowed in it by class features. If you haven't totally resolved your attack action then how can you be said to have taken the attack action? Instead you would be in the process of taking the attack action. Sadly, for example shield master feat of the bonus action attack abilities do not say that if you are in the process of taking the attack action then you can make a bonus action attack. Instead feats like shield master say if you take the attack action. There's a vast difference there.
#9 Noctaem Jan 14, 2015 11:21:21	You're incorrect frog and you can find a very simple example in some of the bonus action attacks you can make. Some say "Take the attack action", "Take the attack action AND ATTACK", "Immediately after" and so on. So what you say simply can't be true by the virtue of how the various game elements are worded and their requirements for when they can be used. "take the attack action and attack" creates 2 very clear requirements, you must take the action required and you must also actually attack. Furthermore by your reading someone can't move or take actions in between attacks, which is a direct contradiction to the rules in the PHB. By spending your Action for the turn to take the Attack Action you're now taking the attack action. At this point any bonus action that requires that you take the attack action can be used. If the requirement is that you take the action and attack, you need to attack at least once before you can spend the bonus action or whatever. Movement before during and after the attack action is also explicitely allowed.
#10 ChrisCarlson Jan 14, 2015 11:21:03	"You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action’s timing is specified..." - PHB, pg. 189 Does that help one way or the other?
#11 Noctaem Jan 14, 2015 11:22:18	ChrisCarlson wrote:
(Reply to #9) FrogReaver	Noctaem wrote:
#13 Stormborn20 Jan 14, 2015 11:24:57	Yunru wrote:
(Reply to #7) AaronOfBarbaria	FrogReaver wrote:
#15 Stormborn20 Jan 14, 2015 11:29:47	FrogReaver wrote:
#16 ChrisCarlson Jan 14, 2015 11:39:59	What happens in the following situation: 1) Player declares he will be taking the attack action with his fighter. 2) Before taking the attack action, he initaites a bonus action to shield bash. But he misses with it. 3) The fighter's intended target was readied and teleports away immediately after the failed shield bash attempt. 4) The fighter now no longer has a valid target for his original attack action. 5) Now what? Does the fighter system crash due to invalid code? ;)
(Reply to #16) randl	ChrisCarlson wrote:
#18 Stormborn20 Jan 14, 2015 12:03:02	You can make an attack without there being a creature to attack. That's how one attacks when blinded, when flailing at invisible creatures, or when attacking an illusion.
#19 Illithidbix Jan 14, 2015 12:26:54	As the above argument indicates, it's still open to debate until we get an Errata. - Personally I believe the intent is that you're able to take the bonus action before making any attacks unless it specifies that the bonus actions has to be taken immediately after making an attack or similarly specific wording. - I'm going by the general rule: You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action’s timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action.
#20 Noctaem Jan 14, 2015 12:26:54	Stormborn20 wrote:
(Reply to #13) Coredump00	Stormborn20 wrote:
(Reply to #16) Coredump00	ChrisCarlson wrote:
#23 ChrisCarlson Jan 14, 2015 12:45:00	Wow. Some of you are too serious for your own good. Sheesh.
(Reply to #20) Coredump00	Noctaem wrote:
(Reply to #23) Coredump00	ChrisCarlson wrote:
#26 iserith Jan 14, 2015 13:21:37	Goober4473 wrote:
#27 RCanine Jan 14, 2015 20:56:47	As usual, Iserith wins.
#28 Plaguescarred4 Jan 15, 2015 5:26:17	Since you choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action’s timing is specified, and that Shield Master doesn't specify a timing other than when taking the Attack action, then it should be anytime you do so, including before or after attacking with said action.
#29 iserith Jan 15, 2015 5:54:01	In my view, the bonus action shield bash attack granted by that feat seems to follow some other attack action ("if you take the Attack action on your turn," "if" being a stand-in for "when"). If a player with the shield master feat only said "I attack with my shield to try to push the orc back," then that would be an attack action and the rules for shoving a shoving a creature (Basic Rules, page 74) would come into play. (This could actually be followed up by the bonus action shield bash granted by the feat. Double bash!) "I attack with my sword to take down the orc and, if he survives, try to push him back with my shield," would be the attack action and the bonus action. But in any case I can't see being much of a stickler with regard to this and wouldn't parse it so finely in actual play as there would be no benefit to doing so. If it I had ruled the shield bash as an attack action because the player stated it first, then he decided to attack some other orc behind him with his sword, I'm fine with it and would retroactively rule the shield bash as the bonus action. No harm done.
#30 guachi Jan 15, 2015 6:45:10	I've tweeted Mr. Crawford for a clarification on several occasions and have yet to receive an answer. For something like Shield Master I agree with the majority that it can be done before rolling your die to attack. It has different wording than something like the Monk's ability which clearly specifies timing and the feat is otherwise pretty lackluster much of the time.
(Reply to #29) Coredump00	iserith wrote:
#32 iserith Jan 15, 2015 7:53:05	Coredump00 wrote:
(Reply to #32) Lucas_Blackstone	I guess I disagree with most of the people here when I say I think that when you take the attack action, you make an attack. I draw this from the PHB under Actions in Combat ( specifically the Attack Action ). " With this action, you make one melee or ranged attack." That is what the rules say. The movement rules allow you to move between attacks if your action grants you more then one attack. But nothing there says that you can take the attack action, then not attack with it but instead do something else, and then take an attack action. The only rules I can think of off the top of my head that interrupt an action are reactions and the moving rules. In my opinion the Shield Master feat is still good without being able to knock opponents down for advantage first.
#34 Stormborn20 Jan 15, 2015 10:34:56	Lucas_Blackstone wrote:
#35 iserith Jan 15, 2015 11:13:20	How does a player "take an Attack action" without describing an attack in the fiction? The fiction comes first from the player, then the DM (at his or her option) applies the mechanics to resolve toward an outcome which he then narrates. These sorts of adjudications become a lot easier to see when we put fiction first and we follow the basic conversation of the game as outlined on page 3 of the Basic Rules. DM: Two orcs rush up to you, swinging their greataxes wildly. One glances off your shield, the other is a wide swing and smashes the wood of the wall next to you, reducing it to splinters. An orc shaman behind them is holding up a bloody skull and chanting the words to a spell. What do you do? Fighter: I take an Attack action. I take 0 attacks, then I use my shield to try and knock one of the orcs prone as a bonus action. DM: Please describe what you want to do in fictional terms and I'll apply the mechanics. Fighter: I bash the orc on the left with my shield, trying to knock him off his feet. DM: Great, that's an attack action, so go ahead and make a Strength (Athletics) check against the orc's Strength (Athletics). Fighter: Wouldn't that be a bonus action though from my Shield Master feat? DM: It says in the feat that you get the bonus action if you make an attack action. If the shield bash is a bonus action, what have you described so far this round that's an attack action? Fighter: I see. Okay. rolls 18. DM: rolls 15. The orc drops to the ground as your shield rings from the blow. What do you do now? Fighter: I make an extra attack against him with my battleaxe! DM: Okay, the orc is still defending himself, just not as well. Roll an attack roll with advantage. Fighter: rolls 21 is the highest of the two. DM: Damage please. Fighter: rolls 12. DM: The orc is wounded as it tries and fails to roll out of the way of your attack. Its companion, still in your face, shouts a curse in Orcish at you. Fighter: I took an attack action this round, so I'm going to apply my shield to that orc's face and try to send him sprawling onto its buddy! If I can knock him prone, someone else in the party can take advantage of that. I also keep my shield up in front of me in case that shaman throws some magic my way! DM: Cool, that'll be a bonus action because of your feat. Go ahead and make a Strength (Athletics) check! And so on. At least, that's how I see it. Others may see it differently.
#36 Stormborn20 Jan 15, 2015 11:28:14	iserith wrote:
#37 iserith Jan 15, 2015 11:43:55	Stormborn20 wrote:
#38 Stormborn20 Jan 15, 2015 12:04:34	Right. My point is that you appear to be trying to back up your position -- that you cannot use the bonus shove before making an attack -- with some sort narrative-based standard to make it appear more dignified than lowly rules lawyering. But when presented with another scenario which is narratively ambiguous, it is revealed that your decision ultimately derives from rules parsing as much as anyone elses, despite the post hoc fictional analysis. By the way, as I reread this it sounds harsher than I intended. I don't mean to sound snarky, and I recognize that you've mentioned that you'd be less strict in actual play. I've appreciated your posts in this thread.
#39 iserith Jan 15, 2015 12:12:06	Stormborn20 wrote:
#40 feartheminotaur Jan 15, 2015 12:29:53	The only time I'd be inclined to strictly rule would be if the player tried to retroactively apply the bonus action. I'm sure that's a "water is wet" kind of statement, but I've seen it a lot: "Oh, I missed. Wait...Wait! I had advantage, because before that roll I used my bonus action to hide!" or whatever.
(Reply to #34) Lucas_Blackstone	Stormborn20 wrote:
#42 Yunru Jan 15, 2015 17:48:52	On the contrary that furthers there point. You have to have taken the Attack action before you make an attack, or Extra Attack doesn't work. Combine that with Bonus actions being able to be taken at any time (and thus between/before attacks is included), and you can shield bash then attack.
#43 Archon007 Jan 16, 2015 11:16:04	Not sure what the confusion is the feat says "If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield." If you TAKE the attack action, not if you declare an attack action. You have to TAKE the attack action to do what an attack action does, then you can use a bonus action.
(Reply to #43) AaronOfBarbaria	Archon007 wrote:
#45 bonethug0108 Jan 16, 2015 13:11:54	To take the attack action you must make at least one attack. In the book it SPECIFICALLY says that resolving the attack is part of making an attack(phb pg. 193-194). Being able to move between attacks is a function of other features, such as Extra Attack and making attacks with bonus actions. That has zero bearing on what making an attack is. So anything that requires you to make an attack requires you to do so first unless specifically stated otherwise. That doesn't mean you have to make all of your attacks with the attack action first, but you must make at least one attack otherwise you are not maing an attack. So you can attack, shove with your shield as a bonus action, and then make extra attacks with Extra Attack. Or you can attack, make extra attacks with Extra Attack, and then shove with your shield as a bonus action. You cannot shove with your shield as a bonus action, attack, and then make extra attacks with Extra Attack. The same goes for TWF, Martial Arts, and anything else that gives a bonus action that requires you to make an attack. One attack has to happen first unless the bonus action specifically says otherwise.
#46 Yunru Jan 16, 2015 13:15:11	And where does it say that you have to make the attack immediately after taking the attack action, hmm? Even if you do, as soon as you have delcared the attack you've definitely taken the attack action, even before dice rolls. So then, following the Bonus action rules, you can use shield bash. Before you roll the attack roll.
#47 bonethug0108 Jan 16, 2015 13:35:11	On phb pg. 193-194. To make an attack you have to do 3 things: choose a target, determine modifiers, and resolve the attack. You MUST do all 3 in order to make an attack. It also says that the rule is simple: if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack. There can be no attack without an attack roll. There is no declaring. That's NOT how it works in 5e. To make an attack you need to attack. That's SPECIFICALLY spelled out. Edit: Even reading the Attack action on phb pg. 192 says that "with this action, you make one melee or ranged attack." It then refers you to Making an Attack. Making an Attack requires actually making an attack. Surprise surprise.
#48 Yunru Jan 16, 2015 13:36:51	Fine, if you want to be that pedantic: Once you've chosen a target, you've taken the Attack action. You've taken the Attack action so you can shield bash. Just face it, you're wrong. bonethug0108 wrote:
#49 bonethug0108 Jan 16, 2015 13:36:51	No. You have to do all 3. That is specifically called out in what Making an Attack is. If you haven't done all 3 you have yet to make an attack. How can you make an attack without making an attack? You have to actually attack, not just say you are eventually going to attack.
#50 Yunru Jan 16, 2015 13:38:57	Because, and this might be novel to you, you don't have to make an attack to shield bash. What you do have to do, is take the Attack action. Which is not the same as making an attack.
#51 iserith Jan 16, 2015 13:49:31	bonethug0108 wrote:
#52 bonethug0108 Jan 16, 2015 13:52:49	Taking the Attack action refers you directly to Making an Attack, and also says that when you take the action, "you make one melee or ranged attack." So taking the Attack action is making an attack, and that involves 3 steps to complete. Also shield bash isn't a thing(unless I missed it elsewhere). If you have Shield Master you can attempt to shove a creature as a bonus action. Not sure what else you were trying to get at here though, as it states if you take the attack action you can attempt to shove as a bonus action. Beyond that we are arguing on circles. Iserith, I get what you are saying, but that is a ruling and not an actual rule spelled out in the book(outside of the uncertainty and DM fiat stuff).
#53 Yunru Jan 16, 2015 13:59:23	No. Taking the action means you make the attack. They're not synomminous (**** my spelling), it's a If: Then. If you're making an attack from your Attack action, at any point during said attack, you have already taken your Attack action.
#54 iserith Jan 16, 2015 14:08:23	bonethug0108 wrote:
#55 bonethug0108 Jan 16, 2015 14:08:25	I know what you are saying Yun, but we disagree on when taking the action is satisfied. You deem it to be as soon as you state you're taking it or when you have declared a target. I deem it to be when all 3 steps have been satisfied.
#56 Yunru Jan 16, 2015 14:22:13	As I said, you're wrong. It goes against the very wording: "If you take". If you are taking an action then you have taken that action, you just happen to still be doing it. Thus back to as soon as you take the Attack action, you can use all those "If you take the Attack action" features. It's not-quite-basic grammar. Hell to rule otherwise means Thirsting Blade does nothing.
#57 bonethug0108 Jan 16, 2015 14:25:52	Thirsting Blade, just as with Extra Attack, is specific. It overrides the limit of 1 attack. The way I'm interpreting it would not affect it.
#58 Orethalion Jan 16, 2015 14:26:51	bonethug0108 wrote:
#59 iserith Jan 16, 2015 14:28:48	I read "Thirsting Blade" the same as "Extra Attack," in that you get another attack (albeit specifically with your pact weapon only) on your turn. I see no implied timing requirement or bonus action cost to complicate the matter in the same way that I see it with the Shield Master feat.
(Reply to #57) Yunru	bonethug0108 wrote:
#61 bonethug0108 Jan 16, 2015 14:41:25	No it is specific in that it says when you take the attack action you can attack twice. It is not based on timing like as would be a bonus attack. You also don't HAVE to take the extra attck if you don't want to. You are confusing the two things I am saying. Taking the attack action involves making an attack. It is not "closed" after making that attack unless you can do nothing else with that action. Extra Attack and Thirsting Blade allow you to attack again, and there is a rule that specifically says you can move between attacks, proving that the Attack action is not "closed" unless you cannot attack again. So I'm not saying the Attack action is satisfied/"closed" upon making the attack roll. I'm saying that Making an Attack is satisfied once the attack roll is made. Things may let you make another attack.
#62 Yunru Jan 16, 2015 14:48:49	Excuse me? You're really trying to argue "Whenever you take the Attack action" has no element of timing? Look, I know you want to be right but the conditions are the same: "Whenever you take the Attack action" "If you take the Attack action" Either both are valid or neither is valid.
(Reply to #61) Yunru	bonethug0108 wrote:
#64 Orethalion Jan 16, 2015 14:58:49	Yunru wrote:
#65 bonethug0108 Jan 16, 2015 15:00:07	Thirsting Blade and Extra Attack aren't time specific. They are added attacks when you take the Attack action. It doesn't matter if you take the extra attack first or second because they are not distinguishable from each other. It's just two attacks. A shove with a shield is distinguishable from a regular attack, as is an extra "off hand" attack with a second light melee weapon that doesn't give ability modifier damage(unless negative). But if you want to add a pointless timing element to Extra Attack and Thirsting Blade you can say that you make your "regular" attack with the Attack action first, and then make the extra attack. But like I said they are indistinguishable from each other. Think of it this way. Take the Attack action.(after this is when you allow the bonus action to jump in, but you can wait if you want) Use Making an Attack to resolve this.(after this is when what I'm reading says the bonus action can jump in, but you can wait if you want) Do you have anything that let's you attack again with the Attack action? If yes then use Making an Attack to resolve it. If no then the Attack action is closed. I get your viewpoint, but from my reading and the book directing me to Making an Attack from the Attack action, you aren't finished making an attack until you finish step three. You're reading as you don't need to finish an attack first.
#66 Kalani Jan 16, 2015 15:02:25	bonethug0108 wrote:
(Reply to #65) Yunru	bonethug0108 wrote:
(Reply to #63) bonethug0108	Yunru wrote:
(Reply to #66) bonethug0108	Kalani wrote:
#70 Yunru Jan 16, 2015 15:12:25	Again: Gramatically you're still wrong. "When I drive" doesn't only apply once you've finished driving, that'd be "whilst I drove." Likewise, "If you take the Attack action" is satisfied the instant you, well, take the Attack action. It's not, after all, "Once you've taken the Attack action".
(Reply to #67) bonethug0108	Yunru wrote:
#72 iserith Jan 16, 2015 15:15:52	Whenever we start sniffing dictionaries and parsing grammar to try to prove one ruling is correct and another is wrong (which can never be proven, ever, since rulings are on par with preferences), the gods attack a kitten, then follow up with an extra attack on another kitten, then because they've taken an attack action, they shove the surviving kitten onto the ground with a shield as a bonus action.
#73 OoftaMeg Jan 16, 2015 15:16:29	I guess the way I've been looking at it is that actions, movement and bonus action can all be happening effectively simultaneously. A move can be taken during an attack action, I don't see any reason a bonus action couldn't be also taken during an attack action as well.
(Reply to #72) Yunru	iserith wrote:
#75 bonethug0108 Jan 16, 2015 15:31:52	I posted the dictionary definition because someone was confusing whenever with a specific timeframe, when whenever actually has as loose a time frame as you can have.
(Reply to #73) bonethug0108	OoftaMeg wrote:
#77 Yunru Jan 16, 2015 15:49:50	Bonus actions happen whenever you want, unless the timing is specified.
#78 Orethalion Jan 16, 2015 15:50:13	Yunru wrote:
(Reply to #76) OoftaMeg	bonethug0108 wrote:
#80 bonethug0108 Jan 16, 2015 15:56:54	If, then implies timing because something has to happen before something else happens. If I work, then I get paid. If the sun goes down, then it gets colder. If I turn on my xbox, then I can play a game on it. And the first one you might be inclined to say you can get paid before working, but that changes the if, then to if I get paid, then I work. So while it is a condition, it also requires that condition(if) to happen before the then can trigger.
#81 Yunru Jan 16, 2015 16:06:49	Okay, and where's the time condition on any of the examples you gave? There isn't any.
(Reply to #80) OoftaMeg	bonethug0108 wrote:
#83 bonethug0108 Jan 16, 2015 16:25:36	The time condition is IF you take the attack action(before), THEN you can use a bonus action to do whatever the specific thing says(after). If happens before then. That's the specific timing.
(Reply to #82) bonethug0108	OoftaMeg wrote:
(Reply to #84) Yunru	bonethug0108 wrote:
(Reply to #84) OoftaMeg	bonethug0108 wrote:
#87 bonethug0108 Jan 16, 2015 16:55:49	Well I addressed attack/attack/"bash" and attack/"bash"/attack being okay by my interpretation, but "bash"/attack/attack not being okay. Nothing says you HAVE to "close out" the Attack action when taking another action. In fact, the movement rules and the bonus action rules imply and/or state that you can take them in between attacks. It all comes down to how you interpret when the Attack action condition is satisfied. Is it when you start the action(choosing a target) or when you finish it(making an attack roll). Neither is called out in the rules and is open for interpretation.
#88 Yunru Jan 16, 2015 17:00:25	Again: not past tense, can't be future tense, must be present tense. Finishing not required.
#89 bonethug0108 Jan 16, 2015 17:07:13	That's not the issue. The issue is what taking the Attack action means. You have to take the action before the ability triggers. At what point are you considered taking the action? Edit: In other words, like I said, is take the Attack action when you choose a target or when you make an attack roll. It's not a present/past/future question. It's a question of what constitutes an Attack action. To me, because directly under Attack action it says it's making a melee or ranged attack, you need to resolve that before you have satisfied the condition of taking the Attack action(but have not closed it out if you have an ability that allows you to use the Attack action to attack again).
#90 Yunru Jan 16, 2015 17:46:13	That logic. You need to have done something before you are doing it? No, just no.You do not, nay cannot, need to resolve the attack to be taking the action. You are attacking with an attack from your Attack action. ANY way you slice it, you are either taking, or have already taken, your Attack action.
#91 Archon007 Jan 16, 2015 18:38:10	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#92 OoftaMeg Jan 16, 2015 19:35:02	Well, let's take a look at some specific examples (and why I'm open to treating some bonus actions differently) Two Weapon Fighting: When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand. Monk's Flurry of Blows: Immediately after you take the attack action... Shield Master: If you take the attack action on your turn ... Shield master is different from Two Weapon Fighting, it doesn't specify after an attack. Flurry of blows is specifically after the attack action. According to the Bonus Action text on page 69 of the basic PHB You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action’s timing is specified, The timing of Shield Master is not specified, and it nowhere does it say that you can't do actions simultaneously.
(Reply to #91) AaronOfBarbaria	Archon007 wrote:
(Reply to #91) Coredump00	If my 5th level fighter takes an attack action... we get: Archon007 wrote:
#95 RCanine Jan 17, 2015 5:42:39	I see taking an action not so much as the result of what you have done on your turn, but the character, in his brain, deciding what he will do. As such, this narrative makes sense to me. DM: bob, your turn. What are you doing? Bob: Krunk will attack that Orc! DM: describe it. Bob: I move up to him, pop him in the nose with my shield, then follow up with a slash to the neck. ...which is why I see the bonus action attack as not including a timing requirement.
(Reply to #95) OoftaMeg	RCanine wrote:
#97 Bloodscythe Jan 17, 2015 9:53:50	People really should avoid phrasing like "No, you're wrong." Just because someone has a different opinion doesn't necessarily mean they're wrong... doesn't mean you're wrong either. Thanks to language ambiguity, it's more likely that everyone is right, given the way they are interpreting the text. That said, I rule this way (the player a 5th lvl fighter with longsword and shield): DM: "Two goblins come bursting through the doorway, shortswords raised! They advance on your position." Player: "I'll advance to meet their charge and bash the first goblin I reach, then use my trusty longsword to dispatch this vile scum!" rolls dice DM: (applying mechanics of the game) The player is attacking with their sword so they're taking their attack action, which meets the condition for SM feat, granting a bonus action, which doesn't specify when the attack can be used so it can be used prior to the attacks granted by the attack action... rolls dice "You catch the first goblin squarely in the face with your shield and drive it to the ground. You slash downward with your longsword but it's "luck" seems to have left as you only manage to strike the ground as the goblin rolls to one side. Do you want to continue attacking the same goblin or switch targets? Both goblins are next to you so you won't need to move to hit either one of them." Player: "I'll try the one on the ground again... come on, longsword, don't fail me." rolls dice DM: rolls dice "You quickly react to the goblin rolling away from your first strike and manage to plunge your blade into its side. The life fades from it as it exhales one last time." This plays out a little differently if the players prefer rolling their hit and damage dice or if they want the DM to do all the dice rolling... The reason I rule this way is, purely looking at mechanics and wording in the PHB, I come up with this: The player is taking their one action to Attack on their turn. This action grants them two attacks per Extra Attack. Since the player is taking the attack action, they meet the conditions for the shield bash bonus actions granted by the SM feat. This requires the use of a shield and does not specify that it must follow an attack. Since it doesn't have to follow an attack, it can happen prior to the attack. TWF does specify it must follow an attack: "When you take the Attack action and attack with a weapon in one hand..." So in the case of TWF, first you have to make at least one attack, then you may use the bonus action granted by TWF, then you can use any remaining attacks. Now the wording of Flurry of Blows says "immediately after the Attack action..." so in that case I rule this way (the player is a 5th lvl unarmed monk): DM: "Two goblins come bursting through the doorway, shortswords raised! They advance on your position." Player: "I'll advance to meet their charge and pummel them into next week." rolls dice DM: "You run up to the first goblin and catch him right in the gut, knocking the wind out of him, but he's still up." Player: "I'll hit him again! I'm going to channel my Ki to flurry of blows." rolls dice DM: "Your flurry rings his bell... he staggers and falls to the ground dead or unconscious. The other goblin?" (only one of the two flurry attacks used so far) Player: "Continue pummelling" rolls dice DM: "You carry the momentum of the haymaker you delivered to the first goblin into a spinning backhand, striking the other goblin across the side of the head. He staggers but remains standing." Player: "I want to kick him this time" rolls dice DM: "You use your height as an advantage and do an axe kick, driving the goblin to the ground. It doesn't get up.* I allow players to use Flurry of Blows immediately following an attack during their turn assuming they're attacking, and they don't try to do something else between attacking and flurrying, like interact with an object or move. I regard the time window of "Taking the attack action" to encompass the time between saying you're going to attack (notice future tense), making each attack, and resolving the final attack granted by the attack action. I point out the future tense because I treat a player saying "I will attack with my longsword" as taking their attack action, but not yet making an attack. It's a subtle difference, but different all the same. Of course, one could argue that "I will attack with my longsword" is not taking the attack action, but rather, will be taking the attack action, treating taking an action the same as making an attack, but I consider the two to be distinctly different from one another. Taking the attack action grants you attacks. You then have to make the attacks. Similarly, the Dash action grants you movement. You then have to use the movement.
#98 bonethug0108 Jan 17, 2015 10:16:53	People are misreading the TWF rule. You don't stop the emphasis at and attack. The sentence keeps going and the reason it says and attack is because they are specifying what you are attacking with. So if you don't see SM as having a timing requirement then neither does TWF.
(Reply to #98) Yunru	bonethug0108 wrote:
(Reply to #99) Coredump00	Yunru wrote:
#101 Yunru Jan 17, 2015 11:23:18	Yeah but that too isn't a timing specification. If he's trying to say that you cant SM because it works the same as TWF then "and attack" is the important bit. Hence "doesn't make sense."
#102 bonethug0108 Jan 17, 2015 12:11:23	It's not "and attack". It's "and attack with a light melee weapon". If you don't consider SM to be time specific than neither is TWF because the wording is a weapon specific restriction and not a time specific restriction.
#103 Yunru Jan 17, 2015 12:14:40	And that's relevant to the discussion how?
#104 bonethug0108 Jan 17, 2015 14:58:58	It was brought up by a couple of people and is related to what the OP is talking about(he specifically calls it out). People are emphasising the wrong part of the text, stopping before the comma.
#105 Yunru Jan 17, 2015 15:18:01	No, they're not. Because the key difference between the two isn't what weapon is used. Yes TWF has three requirements, one of which is irrelevent to the when, hence it gets cut.
(Reply to #96) El_Condoro	OoftaMeg wrote:
#107 Stormborn20 Jan 17, 2015 18:20:22	Everyone seems to be talking past one another. I just want to interject three thoughts: It's the Attack action, not an attack action. There is one thing called the Attack action. Take the Attack action. Make an attack. Those are two different things. For instance, there are many ways to make an attack which do not involve the Attack action. "If, Then" statements are conditional statements. They are not temporal. The word "then" is not being used in the sense "I dropped the kids off at school and then I went to the store". It is being used in the sense of "If a quadrilateral has three right angles, then it is a rectangle."
#108 Undrhil Jan 18, 2015 5:07:28	This is similar to my confusion with bonus action spell casting. The rules for bonus action spell casting states that if you cast a bonus action spell on your turn, then you can only cast another spell if it is a cantrip with a 1 action casting time. My question has been "What if I cast a 1st level spell first? Am I allowed to cast the bonus action spell?" I've been told 'No, because you can only cast a 1 action casting time cantrip if you cast a bonus action spell.' So, if you don't know you are going to cast Misty Step and then, after casting Magic Missile, you decide you want to, you are not allowed to do so. However, if you go in knowing you are going to cast Misty Step, then you have to cast a cantrip (or do something that is not casting a spell of higher level than Cantrip). Basically, make a commitment to attacking (by declaring the Attack action) then you can make your bonus action shield bash, since you are fulfilling the requirements to do so. If you do this and shield bash, then you are locked in to taking the Attack action. You cannot shield bash and then decide to Dodge or whatever.
(Reply to #104) OoftaMeg	bonethug0108 wrote:
#110 Noctaem Jan 18, 2015 8:50:50	Stormborn20 wrote:
#111 guachi Jan 19, 2015 17:30:19	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#112 RCanine Jan 19, 2015 19:00:41	Undrhil wrote:
#113 Orethalion Jan 20, 2015 6:13:31	guachi wrote:
#114 AaronOfBarbaria Jan 19, 2015 22:32:06	Guachi, please fix your quote - I never said the thing you've quoted me saying. Orethalion, if you wouldn't mind fixing your quote of guachi's misquote, that'd be appreciated.
#115 El_Condoro Jan 20, 2015 1:42:28	Where is the misquote? It's what is in your post #93. Unless something went awry with the formatting?
(Reply to #115) AaronOfBarbaria	El_Condoro wrote:
(Reply to #115) Bloodscythe	El_Condoro wrote:
#118 El_Condoro Jan 20, 2015 5:16:49	OK, got it. Thanks.
#119 TempestRime Jan 21, 2015 22:39:27	So, arguing over the semantics of the rules aside, the way I see it is: if the character is capable of attacking with a weapon twice and slamming with a shield once, why wouldn't he be able to take these actions in any order? Hitting people while they're down is fighting dirty, sure, but fighting dirty is effective. No dirty fighter stops to say, "Oh I'm sorry, I should stop and hit you while you're up once before I knock you down and start stabbing." Thus you should be able to use the bonus action first, regardless of the ambiguity over what people interperet the word "when" to actually mean. For a more silly semantic argument: consider that opportunity attacks also use the word "when" with regards to creatures leaving your reach, but the attack specifically occurs before they leave your reach, thus resulting in a time paradox. Since the game universe doesn't divide by 0 every time this happens, this would seem to indicate that "when" is being used to refer to the declaration of taking an action (in this case movement), rather than in real time. I see no reason other bonus actions that rely on conditions like taking an attack action wouldn't follow the same logic, with the exception of course of bonus actions that specifically state when they are to be used. Edit: Upon double-checking the Shield Master feat itself, I noticed the word used is not even "when," but "if." If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use the bonus action. Thus you could use it first, but you are then committed to taking the action, available targets or not, because the Attack action will still be taken on your turn. Again, because opportunity attacks prove that game elements can take place outside of their order in real time.
#120 Kalani Jan 22, 2015 8:58:46	TempestRime wrote:

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

Goober4473

Jan 13, 2015 21:27:20

Several abilities, such as the Monk's Martial Arts, two-weapon fighter, and the Shield Master feat allow you to take a bonus action under the condition that you use the Attack action on your turn.

My question is, when can you take the bonus action? The description for bonus actions specifies that you choose when to take it, unless timing is specified. Does this mean you can declare an Attack action, then, before making any attacks, use your bonus action? Essentially, could you make an off-hand attack, monk martial arts attack, or shield shove before/between your regular attack(s)?

Undrhil

Jan 13, 2015 22:47:52

In general, yes. Note that the Monk's Flurry of Blows says "...immediately after..." which means that you would not be able to move between using the Attack action and making the bonus action flurry of blows. However, for the Martial Arts bonus action attack and the TWF bonus action attack, you can move between the Attack action and the bonus action, if you want or need.

RCanine

Jan 14, 2015 2:30:21

I don't know how well the rules support before. I would allow it, but once you take that bonus action, you're commited; if the TWF bonus attack kills your target and nothing else is within reach, you can't use your action for something else.

Yunru

Jan 14, 2015 3:58:54

You have to take the attack action first. You don't, however, have to make any of the attacks first.

(Reply to #4)

FrogReaver

Yunru wrote:

(Reply to #5)

AaronOfBarbaria

FrogReaver wrote:

(Reply to #6)

FrogReaver

AaronOfBarbaria wrote:

FrogReaver

Jan 14, 2015 11:16:39

So I think my issue is: what the heck do yall think "taking the attack action" means. I think taking the attack action includes its total resolution including all extra attacks that are allowed in it by class features. If you haven't totally resolved your attack action then how can you be said to have taken the attack action? Instead you would be in the process of taking the attack action.

Sadly, for example shield master feat of the bonus action attack abilities do not say that if you are in the process of taking the attack action then you can make a bonus action attack. Instead feats like shield master say if you take the attack action. There's a vast difference there.

Noctaem

Jan 14, 2015 11:21:21

You're incorrect frog and you can find a very simple example in some of the bonus action attacks you can make. Some say "Take the attack action", "Take the attack action AND ATTACK", "Immediately after" and so on. So what you say simply can't be true by the virtue of how the various game elements are worded and their requirements for when they can be used. "take the attack action and attack" creates 2 very clear requirements, you must take the action required and you must also actually attack. Furthermore by your reading someone can't move or take actions in between attacks, which is a direct contradiction to the rules in the PHB.

By spending your Action for the turn to take the Attack Action you're now taking the attack action. At this point any bonus action that requires that you take the attack action can be used. If the requirement is that you take the action and attack, you need to attack at least once before you can spend the bonus action or whatever. Movement before during and after the attack action is also explicitely allowed.

#10

ChrisCarlson

Jan 14, 2015 11:21:03

"You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action’s timing is specified..." - PHB, pg. 189

Does that help one way or the other?

#11

Noctaem

Jan 14, 2015 11:22:18

ChrisCarlson wrote:

(Reply to #9)

FrogReaver

Noctaem wrote:

#13

Stormborn20

Jan 14, 2015 11:24:57

Yunru wrote:

(Reply to #7)

AaronOfBarbaria

FrogReaver wrote:

#15

Stormborn20

Jan 14, 2015 11:29:47

FrogReaver wrote:

#16

ChrisCarlson

Jan 14, 2015 11:39:59

What happens in the following situation:

1) Player declares he will be taking the attack action with his fighter.

2) Before taking the attack action, he initaites a bonus action to shield bash. But he misses with it.

3) The fighter's intended target was readied and teleports away immediately after the failed shield bash attempt.

4) The fighter now no longer has a valid target for his original attack action.

5) Now what? Does the fighter system crash due to invalid code? ;)

(Reply to #16)

randl

ChrisCarlson wrote:

#18

Stormborn20

Jan 14, 2015 12:03:02

You can make an attack without there being a creature to attack. That's how one attacks when blinded, when flailing at invisible creatures, or when attacking an illusion.

#19

Illithidbix

Jan 14, 2015 12:26:54

As the above argument indicates, it's still open to debate until we get an Errata.

- Personally I believe the intent is that you're able to take the bonus action before making any attacks unless it specifies that the bonus actions has to be taken immediately after making an attack or similarly specific wording.

- I'm going by the general rule:

You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action’s timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action.

#20

Noctaem

Jan 14, 2015 12:26:54

Stormborn20 wrote:

(Reply to #13)

Coredump00

Stormborn20 wrote:

(Reply to #16)

Coredump00

ChrisCarlson wrote:

#23

ChrisCarlson

Jan 14, 2015 12:45:00

Wow. Some of you are too serious for your own good. Sheesh.

(Reply to #20)

Coredump00

Noctaem wrote:

(Reply to #23)

Coredump00

ChrisCarlson wrote:

#26

iserith

Jan 14, 2015 13:21:37

Goober4473 wrote:

#27

RCanine

Jan 14, 2015 20:56:47

As usual, Iserith wins.

#28

Plaguescarred4

Jan 15, 2015 5:26:17

Since you choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action’s timing is specified, and that Shield Master doesn't specify a timing other than when taking the Attack action, then it should be anytime you do so, including before or after attacking with said action.

#29

iserith

Jan 15, 2015 5:54:01

In my view, the bonus action shield bash attack granted by that feat seems to follow some other attack action ("if you take the Attack action on your turn," "if" being a stand-in for "when"). If a player with the shield master feat only said "I attack with my shield to try to push the orc back," then that would be an attack action and the rules for shoving a shoving a creature (Basic Rules, page 74) would come into play. (This could actually be followed up by the bonus action shield bash granted by the feat. Double bash!) "I attack with my sword to take down the orc and, if he survives, try to push him back with my shield," would be the attack action and the bonus action. But in any case I can't see being much of a stickler with regard to this and wouldn't parse it so finely in actual play as there would be no benefit to doing so. If it I had ruled the shield bash as an attack action because the player stated it first, then he decided to attack some other orc behind him with his sword, I'm fine with it and would retroactively rule the shield bash as the bonus action. No harm done.

#30

guachi

Jan 15, 2015 6:45:10

I've tweeted Mr. Crawford for a clarification on several occasions and have yet to receive an answer.

For something like Shield Master I agree with the majority that it can be done before rolling your die to attack. It has different wording than something like the Monk's ability which clearly specifies timing and the feat is otherwise pretty lackluster much of the time.

(Reply to #29)

Coredump00

iserith wrote:

#32

iserith

Jan 15, 2015 7:53:05

Coredump00 wrote:

(Reply to #32)

Lucas_Blackstone

I guess I disagree with most of the people here when I say I think that when you take the attack action, you make an attack. I draw this from the PHB under Actions in Combat ( specifically the Attack Action ). " With this action, you make one melee or ranged attack." That is what the rules say. The movement rules allow you to move between attacks if your action grants you more then one attack. But nothing there says that you can take the attack action, then not attack with it but instead do something else, and then take an attack action. The only rules I can think of off the top of my head that interrupt an action are reactions and the moving rules.

In my opinion the Shield Master feat is still good without being able to knock opponents down for advantage first.

#34

Stormborn20

Jan 15, 2015 10:34:56

Lucas_Blackstone wrote:

#35

iserith

Jan 15, 2015 11:13:20

How does a player "take an Attack action" without describing an attack in the fiction? The fiction comes first from the player, then the DM (at his or her option) applies the mechanics to resolve toward an outcome which he then narrates. These sorts of adjudications become a lot easier to see when we put fiction first and we follow the basic conversation of the game as outlined on page 3 of the Basic Rules.

DM: Two orcs rush up to you, swinging their greataxes wildly. One glances off your shield, the other is a wide swing and smashes the wood of the wall next to you, reducing it to splinters. An orc shaman behind them is holding up a bloody skull and chanting the words to a spell. What do you do?

Fighter: I take an Attack action. I take 0 attacks, then I use my shield to try and knock one of the orcs prone as a bonus action.

DM: Please describe what you want to do in fictional terms and I'll apply the mechanics.

Fighter: I bash the orc on the left with my shield, trying to knock him off his feet.

DM: Great, that's an attack action, so go ahead and make a Strength (Athletics) check against the orc's Strength (Athletics).

Fighter: Wouldn't that be a bonus action though from my Shield Master feat?

DM: It says in the feat that you get the bonus action if you make an attack action. If the shield bash is a bonus action, what have you described so far this round that's an attack action?

Fighter: I see. Okay. *rolls* 18.

DM: *rolls* 15. The orc drops to the ground as your shield rings from the blow. What do you do now?

Fighter: I make an extra attack against him with my battleaxe!

DM: Okay, the orc is still defending himself, just not as well. Roll an attack roll with advantage.

Fighter: *rolls* 21 is the highest of the two.

DM: Damage please.

Fighter: *rolls* 12.

DM: The orc is wounded as it tries and fails to roll out of the way of your attack. Its companion, still in your face, shouts a curse in Orcish at you.

Fighter: I took an attack action this round, so I'm going to apply my shield to that orc's face and try to send him sprawling onto its buddy! If I can knock him prone, someone else in the party can take advantage of that. I also keep my shield up in front of me in case that shaman throws some magic my way!

DM: Cool, that'll be a bonus action because of your feat. Go ahead and make a Strength (Athletics) check!

And so on. At least, that's how I see it. Others may see it differently.

#36

Stormborn20

Jan 15, 2015 11:28:14

iserith wrote:

#37

iserith

Jan 15, 2015 11:43:55

Stormborn20 wrote:

#38

Stormborn20

Jan 15, 2015 12:04:34

Right. My point is that you appear to be trying to back up your position -- that you cannot use the bonus shove before making an attack -- with some sort narrative-based standard to make it appear more dignified than lowly rules lawyering. But when presented with another scenario which is narratively ambiguous, it is revealed that your decision ultimately derives from rules parsing as much as anyone elses, despite the post hoc fictional analysis.

By the way, as I reread this it sounds harsher than I intended. I don't mean to sound snarky, and I recognize that you've mentioned that you'd be less strict in actual play. I've appreciated your posts in this thread.

#39

iserith

Jan 15, 2015 12:12:06

Stormborn20 wrote:

#40

feartheminotaur

Jan 15, 2015 12:29:53

The only time I'd be inclined to strictly rule would be if the player tried to retroactively apply the bonus action. I'm sure that's a "water is wet" kind of statement, but I've seen it a lot: "Oh, I missed. Wait...Wait! I had advantage, because before that roll I used my bonus action to hide!" or whatever.

(Reply to #34)

Lucas_Blackstone

Stormborn20 wrote:

#42

Yunru

Jan 15, 2015 17:48:52

On the contrary that furthers there point. You have to have taken the Attack action before you make an attack, or Extra Attack doesn't work. Combine that with Bonus actions being able to be taken at any time (and thus between/before attacks is included), and you can shield bash then attack.

#43

Archon007

Jan 16, 2015 11:16:04

Not sure what the confusion is the feat says "If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield."

If you TAKE the attack action, not if you declare an attack action. You have to TAKE the attack action to do what an attack action does, then you can use a bonus action.

(Reply to #43)

AaronOfBarbaria

Archon007 wrote:

#45

bonethug0108

Jan 16, 2015 13:11:54

To take the attack action you must make at least one attack. In the book it SPECIFICALLY says that resolving the attack is part of making an attack(phb pg. 193-194).

Being able to move between attacks is a function of other features, such as Extra Attack and making attacks with bonus actions. That has zero bearing on what making an attack is.

So anything that requires you to make an attack requires you to do so first unless specifically stated otherwise. That doesn't mean you have to make all of your attacks with the attack action first, but you must make at least one attack otherwise you are not maing an attack.

So you can attack, shove with your shield as a bonus action, and then make extra attacks with Extra Attack. Or you can attack, make extra attacks with Extra Attack, and then shove with your shield as a bonus action. You cannot shove with your shield as a bonus action, attack, and then make extra attacks with Extra Attack.

The same goes for TWF, Martial Arts, and anything else that gives a bonus action that requires you to make an attack. One attack has to happen first unless the bonus action specifically says otherwise.

#46

Yunru

Jan 16, 2015 13:15:11

And where does it say that you have to make the attack immediately after taking the attack action, hmm?

Even if you do, as soon as you have delcared the attack you've definitely taken the attack action, even before dice rolls. So then, following the Bonus action rules, you can use shield bash. Before you roll the attack roll.

#47

bonethug0108

Jan 16, 2015 13:35:11

On phb pg. 193-194. To make an attack you have to do 3 things: choose a target, determine modifiers, and resolve the attack. You MUST do all 3 in order to make an attack.

It also says that the rule is simple: if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack. There can be no attack without an attack roll.

There is no declaring. That's NOT how it works in 5e. To make an attack you need to attack. That's SPECIFICALLY spelled out.

Edit:

Even reading the Attack action on phb pg. 192 says that "with this action, you make one melee or ranged attack." It then refers you to Making an Attack. Making an Attack requires actually making an attack. Surprise surprise.

#48

Yunru

Jan 16, 2015 13:36:51

Fine, if you want to be that pedantic: Once you've chosen a target, you've taken the Attack action. You've taken the Attack action so you can shield bash. Just face it, you're wrong.

bonethug0108 wrote:

#49

bonethug0108

Jan 16, 2015 13:36:51

No. You have to do all 3. That is specifically called out in what Making an Attack is. If you haven't done all 3 you have yet to make an attack.

How can you make an attack without making an attack? You have to actually attack, not just say you are eventually going to attack.

#50

Yunru

Jan 16, 2015 13:38:57

Because, and this might be novel to you, you don't have to make an attack to shield bash. What you do have to do, is take the Attack action. Which is not the same as making an attack.

#51

iserith

Jan 16, 2015 13:49:31

bonethug0108 wrote:

#52

bonethug0108

Jan 16, 2015 13:52:49

Taking the Attack action refers you directly to Making an Attack, and also says that when you take the action, "you make one melee or ranged attack." So taking the Attack action is making an attack, and that involves 3 steps to complete.

Also shield bash isn't a thing(unless I missed it elsewhere). If you have Shield Master you can attempt to shove a creature as a bonus action. Not sure what else you were trying to get at here though, as it states if you take the attack action you can attempt to shove as a bonus action. Beyond that we are arguing on circles.

Iserith, I get what you are saying, but that is a ruling and not an actual rule spelled out in the book(outside of the uncertainty and DM fiat stuff).

#53

Yunru

Jan 16, 2015 13:59:23

No. Taking the action means you make the attack. They're not synomminous (**** my spelling), it's a If: Then. If you're making an attack from your Attack action, at any point during said attack, you have already taken your Attack action.

#54

iserith

Jan 16, 2015 14:08:23

bonethug0108 wrote:

#55

bonethug0108

Jan 16, 2015 14:08:25

I know what you are saying Yun, but we disagree on when taking the action is satisfied. You deem it to be as soon as you state you're taking it or when you have declared a target. I deem it to be when all 3 steps have been satisfied.

#56

Yunru

Jan 16, 2015 14:22:13

As I said, you're wrong. It goes against the very wording: "If you take". If you are taking an action then you have taken that action, you just happen to still be doing it. Thus back to as soon as you take the Attack action, you can use all those "If you take the Attack action" features. It's not-quite-basic grammar. Hell to rule otherwise means Thirsting Blade does nothing.

#57

bonethug0108

Jan 16, 2015 14:25:52

Thirsting Blade, just as with Extra Attack, is specific. It overrides the limit of 1 attack. The way I'm interpreting it would not affect it.

#58

Orethalion

Jan 16, 2015 14:26:51

bonethug0108 wrote:

#59

iserith

Jan 16, 2015 14:28:48

I read "Thirsting Blade" the same as "Extra Attack," in that you get another attack (albeit specifically with your pact weapon only) on your turn. I see no implied timing requirement or bonus action cost to complicate the matter in the same way that I see it with the Shield Master feat.

(Reply to #57)

Yunru

bonethug0108 wrote:

#61

bonethug0108

Jan 16, 2015 14:41:25

No it is specific in that it says when you take the attack action you can attack twice. It is not based on timing like as would be a bonus attack. You also don't HAVE to take the extra attck if you don't want to.

You are confusing the two things I am saying. Taking the attack action involves making an attack. It is not "closed" after making that attack unless you can do nothing else with that action. Extra Attack and Thirsting Blade allow you to attack again, and there is a rule that specifically says you can move between attacks, proving that the Attack action is not "closed" unless you cannot attack again.

So I'm not saying the Attack action is satisfied/"closed" upon making the attack roll. I'm saying that Making an Attack is satisfied once the attack roll is made. Things may let you make another attack.

#62

Yunru

Jan 16, 2015 14:48:49

Excuse me? You're really trying to argue "Whenever you take the Attack action" has no element of timing? Look, I know you want to be right but the conditions are the same:

"Whenever you take the Attack action"

"If you take the Attack action"

Either both are valid or neither is valid.

(Reply to #61)

Yunru

bonethug0108 wrote:

#64

Orethalion

Jan 16, 2015 14:58:49

Yunru wrote:

#65

bonethug0108

Jan 16, 2015 15:00:07

Thirsting Blade and Extra Attack aren't time specific. They are added attacks when you take the Attack action. It doesn't matter if you take the extra attack first or second because they are not distinguishable from each other. It's just two attacks. A shove with a shield is distinguishable from a regular attack, as is an extra "off hand" attack with a second light melee weapon that doesn't give ability modifier damage(unless negative).

But if you want to add a pointless timing element to Extra Attack and Thirsting Blade you can say that you make your "regular" attack with the Attack action first, and then make the extra attack. But like I said they are indistinguishable from each other.

Think of it this way.

Take the Attack action.(after this is when you allow the bonus action to jump in, but you can wait if you want)

Use Making an Attack to resolve this.(after this is when what I'm reading says the bonus action can jump in, but you can wait if you want)

Do you have anything that let's you attack again with the Attack action?

If yes then use Making an Attack to resolve it.

If no then the Attack action is closed.

I get your viewpoint, but from my reading and the book directing me to Making an Attack from the Attack action, you aren't finished making an attack until you finish step three. You're reading as you don't need to finish an attack first.

#66

Kalani

Jan 16, 2015 15:02:25

bonethug0108 wrote:

(Reply to #65)

Yunru

bonethug0108 wrote:

(Reply to #63)

bonethug0108

Yunru wrote:

(Reply to #66)

bonethug0108

Kalani wrote:

#70

Yunru

Jan 16, 2015 15:12:25

Again: Gramatically you're still wrong.

"When I drive" doesn't only apply once you've finished driving, that'd be "whilst I drove."

Likewise, "If you take the Attack action" is satisfied the instant you, well, take the Attack action. It's not, after all, "Once you've taken the Attack action".

(Reply to #67)

bonethug0108

Yunru wrote:

#72

iserith

Jan 16, 2015 15:15:52

Whenever we start sniffing dictionaries and parsing grammar to try to prove one ruling is correct and another is wrong (which can never be proven, ever, since rulings are on par with preferences), the gods attack a kitten, then follow up with an extra attack on another kitten, then because they've taken an attack action, they shove the surviving kitten onto the ground with a shield as a bonus action.

#73

OoftaMeg

Jan 16, 2015 15:16:29

I guess the way I've been looking at it is that actions, movement and bonus action can all be happening effectively simultaneously.

A move can be taken during an attack action, I don't see any reason a bonus action couldn't be also taken during an attack action as well.

(Reply to #72)

Yunru

iserith wrote:

#75

bonethug0108

Jan 16, 2015 15:31:52

I posted the dictionary definition because someone was confusing whenever with a specific timeframe, when whenever actually has as loose a time frame as you can have.

(Reply to #73)

bonethug0108

OoftaMeg wrote:

#77

Yunru

Jan 16, 2015 15:49:50

Bonus actions happen whenever you want, unless the timing is specified.

#78

Orethalion

Jan 16, 2015 15:50:13

Yunru wrote:

(Reply to #76)

OoftaMeg

bonethug0108 wrote:

#80

bonethug0108

Jan 16, 2015 15:56:54

If, then implies timing because something has to happen before something else happens.

If I work, then I get paid.

If the sun goes down, then it gets colder.

If I turn on my xbox, then I can play a game on it.

And the first one you might be inclined to say you can get paid before working, but that changes the if, then to if I get paid, then I work.

So while it is a condition, it also requires that condition(if) to happen before the then can trigger.

#81

Yunru

Jan 16, 2015 16:06:49

Okay, and where's the time condition on any of the examples you gave? There isn't any.

(Reply to #80)

OoftaMeg

bonethug0108 wrote:

#83

bonethug0108

Jan 16, 2015 16:25:36

The time condition is IF you take the attack action(before), THEN you can use a bonus action to do whatever the specific thing says(after). If happens before then. That's the specific timing.

(Reply to #82)

bonethug0108

OoftaMeg wrote:

(Reply to #84)

Yunru

bonethug0108 wrote:

(Reply to #84)

OoftaMeg

bonethug0108 wrote:

#87

bonethug0108

Jan 16, 2015 16:55:49

Well I addressed attack/attack/"bash" and attack/"bash"/attack being okay by my interpretation, but "bash"/attack/attack not being okay.

Nothing says you HAVE to "close out" the Attack action when taking another action. In fact, the movement rules and the bonus action rules imply and/or state that you can take them in between attacks.

It all comes down to how you interpret when the Attack action condition is satisfied. Is it when you start the action(choosing a target) or when you finish it(making an attack roll). Neither is called out in the rules and is open for interpretation.

#88

Yunru

Jan 16, 2015 17:00:25

Again: not past tense, can't be future tense, must be present tense. Finishing not required.

#89

bonethug0108

Jan 16, 2015 17:07:13

That's not the issue. The issue is what taking the Attack action means. You have to take the action before the ability triggers. At what point are you considered taking the action?

Edit:

In other words, like I said, is take the Attack action when you choose a target or when you make an attack roll. It's not a present/past/future question. It's a question of what constitutes an Attack action. To me, because directly under Attack action it says it's making a melee or ranged attack, you need to resolve that before you have satisfied the condition of taking the Attack action(but have not closed it out if you have an ability that allows you to use the Attack action to attack again).

#90

Yunru

Jan 16, 2015 17:46:13

That logic. You need to have done something before you are doing it? No, just no.You do not, nay cannot, need to resolve the attack to be taking the action. You are attacking with an attack from your Attack action. ANY way you slice it, you are either taking, or have already taken, your Attack action.

#91

Archon007

Jan 16, 2015 18:38:10

AaronOfBarbaria wrote:

#92

OoftaMeg

Jan 16, 2015 19:35:02

Well, let's take a look at some specific examples (and why I'm open to treating some bonus actions differently)

Two Weapon Fighting: When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand.
Monk's Flurry of Blows: Immediately after you take the attack action...
Shield Master: If you take the attack action on your turn ...

Shield master is different from Two Weapon Fighting, it doesn't specify after an attack. Flurry of blows is specifically after the attack action.

According to the Bonus Action text on page 69 of the basic PHB

You choose when to take a bonus action during your
turn, unless the bonus action’s timing is specified,

The timing of Shield Master is not specified, and it nowhere does it say that you can't do actions simultaneously.

(Reply to #91)

AaronOfBarbaria

Archon007 wrote:

(Reply to #91)

Coredump00

If my 5th level fighter takes an attack action... we get:

Archon007 wrote:

#95

RCanine

Jan 17, 2015 5:42:39

I see taking an action not so much as the result of what you have done on your turn, but the character, in his brain, deciding what he will do. As such, this narrative makes sense to me.

DM: bob, your turn. What are you doing?

Bob: Krunk will attack that Orc!

DM: describe it.

Bob: I move up to him, pop him in the nose with my shield, then follow up with a slash to the neck.

...which is why I see the bonus action attack as not including a timing requirement.

(Reply to #95)

OoftaMeg

RCanine wrote:

#97

Bloodscythe

Jan 17, 2015 9:53:50

People really should avoid phrasing like "No, you're wrong." Just because someone has a different opinion doesn't necessarily mean they're wrong... doesn't mean you're wrong either. Thanks to language ambiguity, it's more likely that everyone is right, given the way they are interpreting the text.

That said, I rule this way (the player a 5th lvl fighter with longsword and shield):

DM: "Two goblins come bursting through the doorway, shortswords raised! They advance on your position."

Player: "I'll advance to meet their charge and bash the first goblin I reach, then use my trusty longsword to dispatch this vile scum!" *rolls dice*

DM: (applying mechanics of the game) The player is attacking with their sword so they're taking their attack action, which meets the condition for SM feat, granting a bonus action, which doesn't specify when the attack can be used so it can be used prior to the attacks granted by the attack action... *rolls dice*

"You catch the first goblin squarely in the face with your shield and drive it to the ground. You slash downward with your longsword but it's "luck" seems to have left as you only manage to strike the ground as the goblin rolls to one side. Do you want to continue attacking the same goblin or switch targets? Both goblins are next to you so you won't need to move to hit either one of them."

Player: "I'll try the one on the ground again... come on, longsword, don't fail me." *rolls dice*

DM: *rolls dice* "You quickly react to the goblin rolling away from your first strike and manage to plunge your blade into its side. The life fades from it as it exhales one last time."

This plays out a little differently if the players prefer rolling their hit and damage dice or if they want the DM to do all the dice rolling... The reason I rule this way is, purely looking at mechanics and wording in the PHB, I come up with this:

The player is taking their one action to Attack on their turn. This action grants them two attacks per Extra Attack.

Since the player is taking the attack action, they meet the conditions for the shield bash bonus actions granted by the SM feat. This requires the use of a shield and does not specify that it must follow an attack. Since it doesn't have to follow an attack, it can happen prior to the attack. TWF does specify it must follow an attack: "When you take the Attack action and attack with a weapon in one hand..."

So in the case of TWF, first you have to make at least one attack, then you may use the bonus action granted by TWF, then you can use any remaining attacks.

Now the wording of Flurry of Blows says "immediately after the Attack action..." so in that case I rule this way (the player is a 5th lvl unarmed monk):

DM: "Two goblins come bursting through the doorway, shortswords raised! They advance on your position."

Player: "I'll advance to meet their charge and pummel them into next week." *rolls dice*

DM: "You run up to the first goblin and catch him right in the gut, knocking the wind out of him, but he's still up."

Player: "I'll hit him again! I'm going to channel my Ki to flurry of blows." *rolls dice*

DM: "Your flurry rings his bell... he staggers and falls to the ground dead or unconscious. The other goblin?" (only one of the two flurry attacks used so far)

Player: "Continue pummelling" *rolls dice*

DM: "You carry the momentum of the haymaker you delivered to the first goblin into a spinning backhand, striking the other goblin across the side of the head. He staggers but remains standing."

Player: "I want to kick him this time" *rolls dice*

DM: "You use your height as an advantage and do an axe kick, driving the goblin to the ground. It doesn't get up.*

I allow players to use Flurry of Blows immediately following an attack during their turn assuming they're attacking, and they don't try to do something else between attacking and flurrying, like interact with an object or move.

I regard the time window of "Taking the attack action" to encompass the time between saying you're going to attack (notice future tense), making each attack, and resolving the final attack granted by the attack action.

I point out the future tense because I treat a player saying "I will attack with my longsword" as taking their attack action, but not yet making an attack. It's a subtle difference, but different all the same. Of course, one could argue that "I will attack with my longsword" is not taking the attack action, but rather, will be taking the attack action, treating taking an action the same as making an attack, but I consider the two to be distinctly different from one another. Taking the attack action grants you attacks. You then have to make the attacks. Similarly, the Dash action grants you movement. You then have to use the movement.

#98

bonethug0108

Jan 17, 2015 10:16:53

People are misreading the TWF rule. You don't stop the emphasis at and attack. The sentence keeps going and the reason it says and attack is because they are specifying what you are attacking with. So if you don't see SM as having a timing requirement then neither does TWF.

(Reply to #98)

Yunru

bonethug0108 wrote:

(Reply to #99)

Coredump00

Yunru wrote:

#101

Yunru

Jan 17, 2015 11:23:18

Yeah but that too isn't a timing specification. If he's trying to say that you cant SM because it works the same as TWF then "and attack" is the important bit. Hence "doesn't make sense."

#102

bonethug0108

Jan 17, 2015 12:11:23

It's not "and attack". It's "and attack with a light melee weapon". If you don't consider SM to be time specific than neither is TWF because the wording is a weapon specific restriction and not a time specific restriction.

#103

Yunru

Jan 17, 2015 12:14:40

And that's relevant to the discussion how?

#104

bonethug0108

Jan 17, 2015 14:58:58

It was brought up by a couple of people and is related to what the OP is talking about(he specifically calls it out). People are emphasising the wrong part of the text, stopping before the comma.

#105

Yunru

Jan 17, 2015 15:18:01

No, they're not. Because the key difference between the two isn't what weapon is used. Yes TWF has three requirements, one of which is irrelevent to the when, hence it gets cut.

(Reply to #96)

El_Condoro

OoftaMeg wrote:

#107

Stormborn20

Jan 17, 2015 18:20:22

Everyone seems to be talking past one another. I just want to interject three thoughts:

It's the Attack action, not an attack action. There is one thing called the Attack action.
Take the Attack action. Make an attack. Those are two different things. For instance, there are many ways to make an attack which do not involve the Attack action.
"If, Then" statements are conditional statements. They are not temporal. The word "then" is not being used in the sense "I dropped the kids off at school and then I went to the store". It is being used in the sense of "If a quadrilateral has three right angles, then it is a rectangle."

#108

Undrhil

Jan 18, 2015 5:07:28

This is similar to my confusion with bonus action spell casting. The rules for bonus action spell casting states that if you cast a bonus action spell on your turn, then you can only cast another spell if it is a cantrip with a 1 action casting time.

My question has been "What if I cast a 1st level spell first? Am I allowed to cast the bonus action spell?" I've been told 'No, because you can only cast a 1 action casting time cantrip if you cast a bonus action spell.'

So, if you don't know you are going to cast Misty Step and then, after casting Magic Missile, you decide you want to, you are not allowed to do so.

However, if you go in knowing you are going to cast Misty Step, then you have to cast a cantrip (or do something that is *not* casting a spell of higher level than Cantrip).

Basically, make a commitment to attacking (by declaring the Attack action) then you can make your bonus action shield bash, since you are fulfilling the requirements to do so.

If you do this and shield bash, then you are locked in to taking the Attack action. You cannot shield bash and then decide to Dodge or whatever.

(Reply to #104)

OoftaMeg

bonethug0108 wrote:

#110

Noctaem

Jan 18, 2015 8:50:50

Stormborn20 wrote:

#111

guachi

Jan 19, 2015 17:30:19

AaronOfBarbaria wrote:

#112

RCanine

Jan 19, 2015 19:00:41

Undrhil wrote:

#113

Orethalion

Jan 20, 2015 6:13:31

guachi wrote:

#114

AaronOfBarbaria

Jan 19, 2015 22:32:06

Guachi, please fix your quote - I never said the thing you've quoted me saying.

Orethalion, if you wouldn't mind fixing your quote of guachi's misquote, that'd be appreciated.

#115

El_Condoro

Jan 20, 2015 1:42:28

Where is the misquote? It's what is in your post #93. Unless something went awry with the formatting?

(Reply to #115)

AaronOfBarbaria

El_Condoro wrote:

(Reply to #115)

Bloodscythe

El_Condoro wrote:

#118

El_Condoro

Jan 20, 2015 5:16:49

OK, got it. Thanks.

#119

TempestRime

Jan 21, 2015 22:39:27

So, arguing over the semantics of the rules aside, the way I see it is: if the character is capable of attacking with a weapon twice and slamming with a shield once, why wouldn't he be able to take these actions in any order? Hitting people while they're down is fighting dirty, sure, but fighting dirty is effective. No dirty fighter stops to say, "Oh I'm sorry, I should stop and hit you while you're up once before I knock you down and start stabbing." Thus you should be able to use the bonus action first, regardless of the ambiguity over what people interperet the word "when" to actually mean.

For a more silly semantic argument: consider that opportunity attacks also use the word "when" with regards to creatures leaving your reach, but the attack specifically occurs before they leave your reach, thus resulting in a time paradox. Since the game universe doesn't divide by 0 every time this happens, this would seem to indicate that "when" is being used to refer to the declaration of taking an action (in this case movement), rather than in real time. I see no reason other bonus actions that rely on conditions like taking an attack action wouldn't follow the same logic, with the exception of course of bonus actions that specifically state when they are to be used.

Edit: Upon double-checking the Shield Master feat itself, I noticed the word used is not even "when," but "if." If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use the bonus action. Thus you could use it first, but you are then committed to taking the action, available targets or not, because the Attack action will still be taken on your turn. Again, because opportunity attacks prove that game elements can take place outside of their order in real time.

#120

Kalani

Jan 22, 2015 8:58:46

TempestRime wrote: