Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 TheCriticalFail Aug 25, 2014 16:55:22	I have a few questions about the Squire, from the Variant Noble: Knight background feature, since the rules seem to be worded a little ambiguously. Firstly: Can the squire aid you in combat and dangerous situations? While the rules state that your retainers can not, this is said in regard to "Your retainers are commoners who can perform mundane tasks for you, but they do not fight for you" and as the rules state "one of your commoner retainers is replaced by a noble who serves as your squire, aiding you in exchange for training on his or her own path to knighthood." it sounds as though the squire is exempt from these rules, being; 1. a replacement for a retainer, implying that they are not one. 2. Not a commoner, again making them a clear exception to the "retainers are commoners" 3. the fighting would very much presumably be a part of their training. As such it seems they can fight for you, am I correct in my understanding of this? Secondly: Provided the squire can fight for you, how do they gain exp? Half exp? Are they made as a level 1 character and stay level 1? Are they essentially a whole additional character you have control over, or the GM has control over, or just a footnote on your sheet? Thirdly: Provided they're made as essentially a whole new character (but disregarding whether or not they level) does the "replaced by a noble" indicate that a squire must be of the noble background, or simply indicate that they must be of noble birth or descent somewhere in their line? Or could I, for example, have a charlatan using their background feature to have a second identity as a noble being my squire? Fourthly: Are there any class restrictions on what class a Squire could be? For example, a fighter or paladin instantly makes sense but arguably since knighthood is just a title any class could possess it or be aiming for it. Could use some help with this. Maybe I missed a few sections in the book but can't really find clarifications and the two GM's at my local store are in clear disagreement over most of the above issues. Thank you for reading this and thank you in advance for any help offered ^^
#2 Kalani Aug 25, 2014 17:16:53	The assumption (as I read it), is that your squire is an NPC with the noble background, but no "class" levels. My justification for this is because you gain your squire at 1st level, and as such - they cannot be your equal or better.   You are free however, to treat them like a cohort if doing so is in your campaigns best interests, but upon reaching 5th level, they would no longer be considered your "squire" - having been recognised as a fully trained knight in their own right.   I find it somewhat strange that you gain a squire at 1st level, when you yourself are still treated as an apprentice knight...At best, you have only just obtained your knighthood, but I like to think of your first 4 levels as you yourself being a squire (making your squire, a page).
#3 tallric_kruush Aug 25, 2014 18:25:12	I think that the squire was intended to be a simple, non-combatant NPC. As Kalani says, you and your DM can definitely adjust it to fit your campaign, should a greater role be deemed okay.   Taking squires into combat seems like a recipe for a lot of dead squires. Depending upon your setting, that could become a big problem. How many noble families are going to want their son or daughter squiring with the "Death Knight" who keeps getting his squires killed. The life of an adventurer is not for most people, even for Knights in training.   You'd almost have to beef up that squire's capabilities, at which point you run into the issues Kalani mentioned above. If you read over the section regarding intent behind backgrounds in the PHB p125, it's clear that a full fledged cohort or companion character goes beyond the intent of backgrounds. They were intended to add a bit of flavor, with their mechanical perks being limited to a simple feature and a few proficiencies.   I am playing a Noble PC, at the moment, though not a Knight. If I had a squire to whom the group was okay in allowing a bigger role, I think I'd try to get another player to roleplay him out of combat. It seems like a potentially fun situation, as long as it didn't distract the player from his or her PC.
#4 Kalani Aug 25, 2014 18:47:38	Oooh, I like that concept.... If a new player enters the campaign when you already have a few levels under your belt, and they are agreeable - they could take up the role of your squire. When they finish their apprenticeship (at Level 5), they graduate from being your squire, but you will still have the history and squire/mentor relationship with each other..... A character bond basically.   The reason I suggest this is because 5E was designed with varied PC levels in play. Providing all PCs are in the same tier (apprentice, heroic, paragon, etc) they should be able to perform adequetely without encounters being too difficult, and without holding the rest of the party back (due to the way bounded accuracy works). Level discrepencies of 2-3 levels is not as big an issue in 5E as it was in prior editions, and with increasing level, they can close the gap quickly.   There are also downtime rules for "catching up" in Adventurers League. You could always steal those if the player feels they are lagging too far behind - allowing them to do some offscreen sidequests during downtime, while the other PCs perform other downtime activities.
(Reply to #4) tallric_kruush	Kalani wrote:
#6 Kalani Aug 25, 2014 21:04:30	As I said above, The Adventurers League Players guide (for organized play) has rules for using downtime to "catch up" if the campaign enters a new tier of play. Perhaps you could extend those rules to let players catchup at any level. Shouldn't be too hard to adapt.
#7 TheCriticalFail Aug 26, 2014 2:31:40	Thank you the comments so far. While I like a lot of the ideas suggested, particularly the new player joining, the issue in this circumstance was more due to the fact that at least three players from my store are planning to use variant nobles in adventurer's league, thus forming a few issues since none of us were sure (and honestly and still not sure) on the exact rules. Main thing from this seems to be that there is no clear answer regarding how a Squire should work at the moment. Considering that I think going with the "non-combatant" interpretation as you two did, despite the fact that the rules seem to imply this shouldn't necessarily be the case, for the Squire as well as the commoner retainers is definitely the safest option until such a time as these rules get properly clarified. Additionally, having a free combatant seems like it could potentially be abused so I suspect that, regardless of RAW, that is likely the RAI. Thank you very much for your help.
#8 2Chlorobutanal Aug 26, 2014 5:20:28	I think that the "Squire," or groom, or majordomo, or whatever other options are given for retainers in the Variant Noble: Knight section and Variant Feature: Retainers sidebar must still adhere by the non-combat restrictions.  Nothing in the sentence about replacing one commoner mentions any other changes to the restrictions of retainers or an ability to enter combat on your behalf.  In fact, the sentence seems to be entirely roleplay suggestions as to what specifically that retainer can do for you as a "mundane task," rather than mechanical game rules.   In general, backgrounds do not (or should not) provide combat or mechanical advantages.
#9 Jbickley00 Aug 26, 2014 18:42:11	While I agree with 2chlor in prinicpal, i think the squire could be an interesting way to get an npc into the party if they need some combat beefiness. I rather like the idea of having a squire NPC from level 1-5. While the PC initially might not be much higher in level than the squire, this is ok with me because the pc is just a beginning knight (who was for some reason knighted early?) and may not have the authority or confidence to keep the squire in line - so there is an interesting possibility for tension. Of course after the PC is level 6 (and the first squire is level 5) the PC gets a new level 1 squire, and the party now has a much less powerful npc which could be a liability that produces intersting tensions.   This being said i should note that in my book, fighters should have followers and having a handful of npcs to manage gives the fighter a more interesting time in combat at higher levels.