As a DM, is it just me, or does the "can't be suprised while you are conscious" part of the Alert feat rub anyone else the wrong way. I can understand letting it stand for 90% of the time. But there is gonna be that rare occasion that being suprised is either guaranteed by the situation or needed by the storyline. Never being suprised.. ever. Is broken IMO.
I had a conflict with a player during the playtest about this. He argued that there is no point in him even having the feat if is not used RAW.
I know I can houserule. or just drop the feat altogether, but I just wanted to get other peoples opinion on this.
Since it competes with a +2 ability improvement, I think it's fine as it is. If it wouldn't work some of the time, you would be way better off with Observant (since this would also make you non-surpisable by everything you as a DM deem to be able to be seen coming + stat increase + insight bonus).
Doesn't bother me. Surprise isn't something considered during every combat, so its limited application balances its awesomeness. I think it's flavorful, fun, and sensible in terms of utility.
He is right to complain if the rules say he cannot be surprised while conscious and the DM says that he is ever surprised while conscious.
You can try to make a house rule, but he would get a say in that too.
You might be mixing up the game effect, surprised, vs the normal usage. A character with the feat can certainly be taken unawares, he just reacts fast enough that it doesn't affect his fighting.
I don't really see when a storyline would require the mechanical effect, what was the situation you were thinking of?
I am not really sure what the problem is. Not being able to be surpised is really spiffy to be sure, but I don't see how it ruins anything, since this ability has been part of DND for a while now. Anyone under the Foresight spell in 3.x couldn't be suprised, and for that matter any Divine Oracle in 4th couldn't either.
-Polaris
jackbytor wrote:
I am confused how mrpopstar is quoting a post that I can't see.
But I agree with his interpretation. Assuming the character's perception was not good enough to notice the lurker above in the first place, the encounter would begin with the lurker dropping.
It is a little confusing how to sort initiative in a case like that though. The drop is an attack, I assume, so would that be the lurker's action for the surprise round? Or would they roll initiative and the lurker would get to act again (with the alert character) during the surprise round? Unless there are rules I don't know about, I would probably say the attack was the first action of the surprise round and the lurker automatically got to go first. So the alert character would get a turn, and then it would go to normal initiative order.
jaelis wrote:
jaelis wrote:
So Indra might get to act before the lurker falls? To me that is confusing because the lurker is hidden until it falls. So if Indra wins initiative, what is she supposed to be doing? She is unaware of the presence of any enemy.
edit:
I suppose it could be "Indra, your danger senses are tingling, you don't know why. You can look around for trouble, move somewhere, and/or ready an action to respond." That doesn't tell her what is going on, but gives her a chance to take a useful turn.
I like the feat and think its perfectly fine. That PC just cant be surprised, no worries.
jaelis wrote:
As sombody that played an Epic level rogue in 3.0/3.5 and rolled an 85 on a Hide/MoveSilently roll and was automatically spotted by the Dragon that we were trying to sneak by I must fully agree that all go/no go rules are extremely overpowered.
mrpopstar wrote:
jaelis wrote:
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jaelis wrote:
mrpopstar wrote:
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
jaelis wrote:
Hah, I anticipated that an slipped in an edit, but I'll move it here:
----
Or if you take the easy response and say I've already committed to shooting, then perhaps I am a canny rogue and I don't tell the DM what my plan is in the first place. I just say, "OK, I'd like to start the fight, can we roll initiative now?"
---
More generally, if it isn't my turn yet, how can I commit to an action?
jaelis wrote:
As a further explanation, a character can't "will" an encounter into being, can they? They have to do something to necessitate the combat round structure. Otherwise, it would be possible to "mentally" enter combat.
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
The combat round is a bit of an abstraction anyway, so at my games I would not have a problem with a rogue going in for an ambush, botching initiative against a super-alert foe, and getting the tables turned on them because they broke their sneaking as they approached.
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
jaelis wrote:
But he rolled initiative...
There's no option in 5e to pass your turn in combat. The rules suggest readying or dodging if you're unsure. So if the rogue wants initiative, he's gotta start taking turns.
I think I've parroted this a few times in a handful of threads recently, but it's important to know when and where a call for initiative is appropriate.
jaelis wrote:
You see what I'm saying here, right? You either have to let me attack to initiate the combat, in which case how can my target react act before I attack? Or else you initiate combat before I attack, in which case I have to wait until my turn to do anything, attacking or not.
The danger sense thing is one solution. The target just somehow knows I am out there, whether I attack or not. But it's not fair to say I did something to reveal myself. It just means Alert can do something uncanny.
Or the iniative fiat thing works fine too, I have no problem with it.
Here's what happens:
- Initiative is rolled
- hapless human with the Alert feat wins initiative
- Round 1, hapless human hasn't detected super sneaky rogue, so continues going about his business, he gets an action and moves in the manner he was before combat started
- Rogue's turn, he fires a crossbow at the hapless goblin hoping to catch him off guard
The end
Depending on how you want to run it, you could change what happens in the first round of combat. You could say that the Alert feat makes you aware combat is starting if you win initiative so you get a chance to do an action but without having detected the enemy, you won't be able to attack them first.
reddaemon wrote:
jaelis wrote:
jaelis wrote:
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
mrpopstar wrote:
jaelis wrote:
mrpopstar wrote:
Combat starts the moment there is the intent of hostility.
"OK, you're going to try to shoot the goblin? (Determine surprise.) Roll initiative. Before you're able to shoot, the goblin lets out a squeek drops to the ground covering it's head with it's arms. What do you want to do now?" (Your shot would now be with disadvantage as Alert cancels out your advantage from being hidden and the target is prone.)
"Alright, your Sleight of Hand check beats the wizard's passive Perception, he has no idea you have a dagger in your hand. You're going to try to stab him? (Determine surprise.) Roll initiative. Just as you ready your attack a silvery mist surrounds the wizard and he dissapears and reappears across the room (Misty Step). He looks to be on his guard now (Dodge action) and very wary of you. It's your turn." (However they want to play it out from there is up to them as there hasn't been any overt attack from the PC.)
You're still hidden from the goblin. The wizard still doesn't know you have a palmed dagger. All they know is that they feel threatened. Now if they use their action to try to figure out what's got them feeling that way, then that's a different story if they succeed.
"The goblin squints in your direction. His eyes go wide and he turns and runs away." (Now you're no longer hidden and wouldn't get advantage on your attack.)
"As you are about to make your attack, the wizard quickly steps away. You can make an attack of opportunity if you wish. You swing and a magical shield of force knocks your blade aside as the wizard moves away from you, stops, then eyes you with utter contempt. " (So sorry Assassin, guess you weren't as sneaky as you thought!)
Seems pretty seamless to me.
Nothing about Alert affects initiative in any way. Edit: Obviously other than the bonus to initiative, I mean. The same initiative roll still happens at the same time.
I am not even sure if losing initiative would or wouldn’t allow an attacker to abort the attack, but Alert would not change that ruling.
Perhaps more importantly, the attacker might not know that the Alert character will not be surprised. If he attacks he might suffer from a different kind of surprise when the Alert character unexpectedly acts on his first turn.
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
jackbytor wrote:
jaelis wrote:
There is nothing preventing you from having particularly excellent ambushes give the attackers advantage on the initiative roll even against someone who cannot be surprised.
"The ambush is perfectly executed, and until it is sprung none of you have the slightest hint of it, and the three gelatinous cubes are on top of you before you know it. Boba however manages to react so fast he can still act normally."
*DM rolls 18 for the Cubes after an advantage roll. Boba rolls a 15*
"The cubes move in. You only have one cooridoor to retreat down, or you'll be engulfed. Either way there is nothing you can do for your friends but pray..."
This feat doesn't make deadly perfect-surprise ambushes inneffective, it just gives the user a chance to do something once they are sprung even if the effectiveness of the ambush set-up means any unilateral actions are not going to be telling.
Less effective ambushes may be considerably less effective and there is no advantage on the suprise roll for the attackers, but the feat is supposed to be a considerable edge for the character.
Caliburn101 wrote:
I'd go with the danger sense interpretation. Doesn't even have to be magical - the character mundanely senses 'something is wrong' - maybe some animal has gone quiet, or they smell something, or they caught some movement in their peripheral vision, but the brain hasn't quite processed it yet.
Anyway, the hidden ambusher wishes to initiate their attack, the alert character wins initiative, 'has a bad feeling', but hasn't yet spotted the cause. Maybe they drop to the ground, or shout a warning to their friends, or dodge, or cast a defensive spell. Then the attacker's turn comes up. Do they continue with their attack? If so, they can attack one of the characters who are surprised, or they can attack the character who isn't, and will still have advantage, since they are still hidden, though the character may now have other defenses up. Or, since they've lost the element of surprise, but haven't been spotted yet, do they slink back away from the party to try again later, leaving that defensive spell 'wasted'? And if they do opt to try again later, does the party ever find out if there really was a danger? Do they start to put less trust in the character's 'bad feelings'? "You always have a bad feeling, and most of the time it's nothing."
As a DM, I might even emphasize that by having the party roll initiative on occassion when there's nothing there. Honestly, I might do that on occassion even without an alert character in the party. Keep 'em on their toes. Doesn't take much to do, unlike in 3e or 4e when bluffing a possible combat encounter required having a map and minis out and at the ready.
The alert character has a feeling that something is amiss. It could be an unfamiliar smell, a sound, the dampness of the air, or whatever. They don't even need to be able to identify what caused the feeling it's just a feeling that something is wrong. You let them know they have a feeling and that everyone should roll initiative. Just because they have the feeling doesn't mean they automatically recognize the source of that feeling. So if they win initiative, during the surprise round they know something is wrong and choose what action to take without necessarily knowing the source. Then the "source" of the uneasy feeling can act. This may make other party members more suitable targets for the ambush.
I don't have my PHB with me but I believe one of the effects of the Alert feat is that you don't grant advantage to attackers you don't see. So the alert party member will gain some defensive advantage from being alert even if they end up having to ready an action because they can't identify the threat.
mrpopstar wrote:
Tashiro wrote:
It seems fine to me. The Alert saves you from being attacked with advantage, and sneak attack damage, or whatever surpise or advantage bonuses they get. You can act on your turn, unless the DM rules that the bad guys get a round a free attacks then the initiative starts. I just normally skip the surprised people and everyone else goes.
Now the surprise might be an effect, the suprisor might cast an area spell for example. Everyone else gets disadvantage on the save, the Alert person doesnt. Seems fair.
The Alert person can interupt the surprisor, the people doing the surprising are "surprised" at how fast you can react.
Its more overpowered when you read it then it is in actually game play. The +5 bonus to INT is more important IMO, the assasain rogue will have a whole host of people to sneak attack damage right away in almost every case. Without the feat, its harder in the first turn to get the sneak attack damage across since generally you go first and no one is near the enemy to invoke 5' clause of sneak attack damage.
I would almost always prefer Observiant feat. The +5 to passive Perception and Invesitgation checks help to keep you from getting surprised and help searching checks immensely. Most dont use the search rules right, its a repetitive task so your investigation or perception score is used. That can make finding things alot easier. I personally think the search rules should be active checks cant be lower than your passive checks in non stress situations, so your rogue with 14 int has a minimum 19 passive investigation at the first level when you get the feat. You will find most traps and secret doors that way, that is much more important. With a Wisdom of 10 but trained in Perception your passive will be 17, so you will avoid many surprise situations also. My human rogue took this at creation with the variant rules, it is huge addition to your arsenal.
For me, inititive is rolled before anything happens. In the case of the cloaker, the moment it decides to drop inititive is rolled, in a normal circumstance, everyone is suprised, except the one character. Now if they get to go first, sure they can attack, but right now the cloaker is hidden, the best they can do on their turn is use their action to find what is attacking.
This won't stop his companions from being surprised, it won't stop the cloaker from attacking, but what it may do is keep the cloaker from attacking him with advantage if he is indeed the target.
The alarm spell as a ritual that lasts 8 hours is worse if you have something against auto-success and negating surprise. It will wakeup a sleeping caster. The downside to the spell is limited area, but in a dungeon it will be very useful.
The problem as I see this is anyone with this feat PC or NPC is immune from the Dallas 1pm Scenario ie sharpshooter assasin at 300ft+ can no longer attack with the benefit of a sneak attack as they cannot now have advantage over such a target.
mrsrockguru wrote:
smbakeresq wrote:
smbakeresq wrote:
Overpromises wrote:
smbakeresq wrote:
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
The more I think about it the more I believe the Alert feat is a trap. The Alert feat gives you a constant initiative bonus that is great and always useful. You also get to act on the surprise round of an enemy, that sounds great. If you fail your passive perception check though, you can still get hit with a readied action, I do not see how it could prevent that. I think less than half the encounters the group even checks to see if they are surprised. You can also prevent surprise through role play.
IMO, the observant feat is better. It prevents you from getting surprised in the first place by boosting passive perception, so you would get to act in surprise round also, but not %100. However the boost is substantial, proficiency + the feat is a minimum +17 passive perception check, that's substantial, and that's at first level if you take the feat as a human. With a 14 wisdom, it's 19, very few creatures will be able to beat that. This will grow over time. It is also always on, so you will notice secret doors, hidden things and traps also. You also get a huge bonus to investigator skill, so you will be able to figure out how to disarm that trap or work that secret door or figure out how to stop the room from flooding while you loot the chest.
The character that takes Alert most likely will be DEX guys anyway, they usually win initiative most times or are near the top anyway. I can see rogue assassin characters taking it, since going first is big for them. But then most rogues will have something in WIS and or INT, so observant helps them even more.
I think the Observant feat offers more, but requires more work. You need to "work" the DM to get passive checks in as much as possible. You need to make sure the DM knows your passive perception so he can tell you in advance what's going on, maybe with just you and him but not the group. The Alert feat requires nothing at all from the player except for remembering that you have it.
smbakeresq wrote:
smbakeresq wrote:
"We all ready dodge actions that trigger when we see an enemy. That way any enemy that beats us in initiative has disadvantage on their attack rolls."
... 
If an Alert adventurer doesn't know an attack is incoming until something happens to reveal the attack (Alert is NOT 'danger sense') then as RAW there is no benefit until the initiating event STARTS.
In the case of a lone distant sniper - the arrow, unless it was noisy in some way or shot visibly, would not trigger the benefits of the Alert Feat until it HIT.
It hitting is the initiating event - as it should be - distant sniping is a best case scenario for a surprise attack, especially from a hidden position with a silent weapon!
"You feel a stabbing pain in your back as an arrow strikes home. The rest of the party are surprised, you can roll initiative."
"OK - I roll a 15 and ready a Dodge action in case there are more snipers."
"Six more arrows fly in over the next couple of seconds. Three of the party are hit by one arrow each and one by two, and the last well aimed shot is coming at you, but misses because you duck."
*DM rolls damage on surprised party members*
Thusly - the Alert Feat is still useful even when the party get caught with their pants down...
I don't think it's broken, as it only applies to one character who takes it. If everyone in your group takes the Alert feat, then I would simply have a conversation with them
Dane_McArdy wrote:
WibbleNZ wrote:
Danny_Montanny wrote:
Caliburn101. wrote:
smbakeresq wrote:
smbakeresq wrote:
smbakeresq wrote:
nightwalker450 wrote:
nightwalker450 wrote:
Dane_McArdy wrote:
I would just rule that if a action triggers combat, then that action happen first in the initiative order.After that things go back to normal initiative order.
For example:
Only one party is aware of another. (the goblins)
First round:
The goblins shoot arrow-> Alert characters get to act
Second round:
Things go back in initiative order.
The characters who take the feat get to act in the first round and the enemies don't get advantages attacking them. I think these benefits are enough and they don't need to act before the combat trigger.
He doesn't automatically detect creatures or anything. He, and only he, just gets no drawbacks in the surprise round and he gets to act in the surprise round.
If you're boning him in a combat way, that's one thing. But you're within your narrative rights to have the bad guy throw sand in the hero's eyes and make a quick escape if he's needed later for the plot.
The party gets no benefit from this, other than what the character can do with his "bonus" round.
Stealthers still stealth up, etc.
nightwalker450 wrote: