OK so just need some clarification on how to deal with the party beginning an ambush in regard to how they do what they want in the order they want and how they do that when the rules are roll init first and determine surprise.
I recently had the following 2 scenarios happen and just wanting to know how they should have paned out or if we did them correctly.
first
SO the party noticed enemies coming towards them (enemies weren't trying to hide and weren't expecting trouble so they didn't notice the party) the party pulls back and waits to see what the enemies are doing.
The enemies stop and set up camp and they set some guards that aren't overly attentive.
The party decides they want to attack the camp. As a group they have an in game convo on how they want to begin the attack they settle on the following.
- melee guys stealth closer to the camp to within their movement distance from the enemies. (terrain allowed for this and still be hidden)
so to start the surprise round
- they want the wiz to fireball the camp first.
- then the cleric cast hold person on the one who is out of the aoe,
- then the melee guys run up and attack anyone who is still standing from the fb,
so that’s all good and all and if we were playing 3.5 rules I would just let them do it in that order except the melee guys would of had to just used a ranged attack or just run into melee range no attack as you only get a standard action in the surprise round anyway.
but how would that work with 5th ed if they all roll init including the enemies (who are surprised as none have passive perception over the stealth rolls that the party made.) if the wiz who is supposed to be the one to go first rolls a low init and goes after everyone else how would it all work out. there is no delay actions now just ready so the cleric could say I ready my spell to cast after the fb but the melee people cant ready to run up AND attack. only one or the other.
The melee guys just ended up readying a ranged attack then ran up in the next round.
all worked out anyway but just wondering on how to process we want to act in a specific order request.
scenario 2
rogue and ranger sneak up to peek inside the room, no one in the room notices them and rest of party are down the hall watching.
then the rogue sees a particular npc and says I shoot them with my crossbow.
so then init rolls happens, so the monk with alert feet and the ranger (no feat) roll init above the rogue the rest of the party roll init below the rogue. So technically the monk and ranger go first in init but until the rogue acts they don't know they have to act so how do they get to act. do they count as being surprised as they didn’t expect the rogue to up and attack without warning. (normally they would have retreated to decide on their course of action but this was a character choice based on the characters background with the npc so more an act of rage than a thought out ambush)
if the party counts as do count as surprised how does the person with the alert feat respond as they technically have a go anyway as they can act in the surprise round. do they just know the rogue is about to do something stupid or are they just like I can act but I have nothing to act on so I just continue standing here. (which is what happened)
so on that note how do you deal with Alert feat and going first in the surprise round due to high roll, but not having high enough perception to know there is an attack about to happen.
Scenario 1
They would first surprise the enemies, which have no action, can't move and have no reaction for the round. If the wizard needs to fireball first, the rest have to either ready their action (delay an action or movement to use them as a reaction afterwards) or simply wait until their next turn. Normally. I would simply decide their order in surprise themselves (since they had time to coordinate it) and the roll initiative afterwards. As a DM, I can rule it the way I think makes most sense. ;)
Scenario 2
A good way to determine surprise in those situation is how surprise the players other than the rogue looks. If they didn't foresee it, they character couldn't either. With Alertness I would simply (in that special case) allow the feat user a turn right after the triggered action, instead rolling normal initiative.
In most cases roll initiative after the 'surprise rounds' if it seems to make sense and rule the order in said round by logic. Guides you through most cases, which will somehow make initiative complicated. Here you simply have to bend the rules, since there are no specific rulings to any situation.
Thank you
Kentus wrote: