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| #1Sword_of_SpiritJul 07, 2014 15:02:01 | The rules for hiding and perception are mostly consistent, but there are some serious inconsistencies in a couple of places. I'm hoping to figure out both the intent and the status of the text. Can RAW be harmonized with RAI. Am I missing a couple of sentences that fix everything? Or are we truly looking at inconsistent rules.
After examining the text and pointing out the problem, I've provided a suggestion for how to fix in a way that adds a minimal couple of principles without invalidating any of the written text.
Conventions -Being invisible and being heavily concealed are functionally identical for purposes of hiding. If I use one term below, I’m also including the other in my intention.
Assumptions -All other considerations being equal, it should not be easier to notice a heavily obscured creature than a lightly obscured creature
Relevant Text 1. What Dexterity (Stealth) checks allow you to attempt (Page 60, under Stealth) a) Conceal yourself from enemies b) Slink past guards c) Slip away without being noticed d) Sneak up on someone without being seen or heard 2. What Stealth while traveling allows you to attempt (Page 64, under Stealth.) a) When not in the open, surprise other creatures b) When not in the open, sneak by other creatures. 3. How vision comes into play a) A main factor in determining whether you can find a hidden creature or object (Page 60, under What Can You See?) b) Might be lightly obscured or heavily obscured (Page 60, under What Can You See?) c) Noticing danger relies heavily upon (Page 65, under Vision and Light) d) Finding hidden objects relies heavily upon (Page 65, under Vision and Light) e) Hitting an enemy in combat relies heavily upon (Page 65, under Vision and Light) f) Targeting a spell relies heavily upon (Page 65, under Vision and Light) 4. The effects of obscurement on vision (Page 65, under Vision and Light) a) Under light obscurement, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight b) Under heavy obscurement, creatures effectively suffer from the blinded condition 5. How to hide (Page 60, under Hiding) a) Make a Dexterity (Stealth) check, keep it until you are discovered or stop hiding b) You check is contested by a Wisdom (Perception) check from those who actively search for signs of your presence c) There is a chance someone will notice you even if they aren’t searching. This occurs if their passive Wisdom (Perception) check wins against your Dexterity (Stealth). 6. Conditions that explicitly disallow hiding (Page 60, under Hiding) a) You can’t hide from a creature that can see you b) If you make a noise (such as shouting or knocking over a vase), you give away your position 7. Conditions that explicitly allow hiding (Page 60, under Hiding) a) An invisible (heavily obscured) creature can’t be seen, so it can always try to hide b) Lightfoot halflings can attempt to hide even when they obscured only by a creature that is at least one size category larger than them (Page 17, under Naturally Stealthy) c) Wood elves can attempt to hide even when they are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena (Page 15, under Mask of the Wild) 8. Conditions that might allow hiding a) In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you (Page 60, under Hiding) b) However, under certain circumstances the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted (Page 60, under Hiding) c) Or you might try to spot things that are obscured or easy to miss, whether they are orcs lying in ambush on a road, thugs hiding in the shadows of an alley (Page 62, under Perception) 9. Conditions necessary to attempt to notice a hiding creature (Page 60, under Hiding) a) Invisible (heavily obscured) creatures can be noticed by signs of their passage or if they do not stay quiet. b) Use the passive Wisdom (Perception) scores of the character to determine if whether anyone in the group notices a hidden threat. The DM might decide that a threat can be noticed only be characters in a particular rank. For example, as the characters are exploring a maze of tunnels, the DM might decide that only those characters in the back rank have a chance to hear or spot a stealthy creature following the group. (Page 65, under Noticing Threats) 10. Situations where Wisdom (Perception) checks are penalized a) While traveling at a fast pace, characters take a -5 penalty to their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to notice hidden threats. (refers back to 9b, page 65, under Noticing Threats) The penalty is equivalent to disadvantage (Page 59 under Passive Checks) b) In a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight. (Page 65, Vision and Light)
Principles Extracted 11. There are conditions under which any* creature may attempt to hide, even when not heavily obscured (invisible). (see 8) 12. It is intended that any* creature might be able to hide (subject to DM adjudication) when they are, at the minimum: slinking past guards, sneaking up on someone without being heard, approaching a distracted creature in combat, following characters while not in the open, lying in ambush on a road, hiding in the shadows of an alley (1b, 1d, 8a, 8c, 2 and 9b). (1c could potentially also fit into a category of lacking heavy concealment) 13. The minimum requirements for potentially spotting a hiding creature are that they leave signs of their passage and are not inaudible (such as via the silence spell). (see 9a) 14. There are situations where characters take some kind of penalty to Wisdom (Perception) checks to notice hidden creatures that are not heavily obscured, and the attempt potentially includes visual components. (10, refer to 9b for background) *by which I mean they don’t need the sort of exception that halflings and elves have
And the more debatable one, but supported by (12): 15. Already hidden creatures can remain hidden while only lightly obscured.
As I analyzed all that, two things became apparent. The first is that a generally consistent system is there, although it can be difficult to tease out. The second is that the rules for disadvantage require additional rules to clarify them and justify their existence. They are otherwise inconsistent and incompatible with the rest of the system.
So let me see how I can attempt to fix it. Here is my Intelligence (Design & Analysis) check.
Principles Created 16. When you are distracted, you have disadvantage on your passive Wisdom (Perception) score to notice hidden creatures who are lightly or heavily obscured. You are distracted if you are traveling at a fast pace or the DM otherwise determines that you are. In general, you are not distracted during combat or other states of alertness. 17. You have disadvantage on your Wisdom (Perception) checks/score to notice an already hidden creature that is lightly obscured and inaudible (such as through magical silence)
As far as I can tell, this creates about five states of stealth vs. perception possibilities.
The Five States of Stealth *Impossible to Notice*: It is normally impossible to notice a creature that is invisible (heavily obscured) and inaudible (such as magically silenced) *Disadvantage to Notice*: The perceiver take disadvantage to Wisdom (Perception) checks, or -5 to passive Wisdom (Perception) score vs. hiding creatures in any of the following circumstances: a) The perceiver is distracted and the hiding creature is lightly or heavily obscured. b) The creature is completely inaudible (such as magically silenced) and lightly obscured and already hidden c) The perceiver is distracted and the creature is lightly or heavily obscured. d) The perceivers are traveling at a fast pace, and the creature hiding is not in the open *Normal Opposed Checks*: A normal contest of Wisdom (Perception) check/score versus Dexterity (Stealth) ensues in any of the following circumstances: a) The creature attempting to hide has heavy obscurement b) The creature attempting to hide is allowed to hide with less than heavy obscurement by virtue of a special ability (such as lightfoot halflings or wood elves) c) The creature is already hidden with light obscurement. d) The perceiver is distracted and the creature attempting to hide is neither lightly nor heavily obscured e) The perceivers are traveling at a normal or slow pace, and the creature hiding is not in the open *Automatically Unhidden*: You become automatically unhidden in any of the following circumstances: a) You become unobscured, and the perceiver is not distracted b) You make a distinct noise (such as shouting or knocking over a vase) *Ineligible to Hide*: You cannot even attempt to hide in any of the following circumstances: a) A perceiver currently sees you, whether or not you have light concealment b) You are not trying to be quiet
As far as I can tell, everything I listed in those five states is compatible and logically derived from the text, with the simple addition of the two principles that I added above.
Did I miss anything? Can anyone see a problem with my analysis?
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| #2Cyber-DaveJul 07, 2014 15:46:11 | I do not believe, as per the rules as written, that you may remain hidden if only lightly obscured inside combat. A DM may, at his whim, allow you to hide without being heavily obscured. This, however, is very rare in combat. And, it must be situationally permitted outside of combat too. I don't think any rule in the game allows you to remain hidden when you are only lightly obscured as a baseline assumption. Other than that, your interpretation seems pretty thorough and accurate. |
| #3Archon007Jul 07, 2014 16:17:42 | Wow, you wrote a lot of text to really confuse something that to me seem very easy to read and understand.
Instead of a huge essay why not just ask a few simple questions that you had or weren't sure of? |
| #4OverpromisesJul 07, 2014 19:23:35 | “a) The perceiver is distracted and the hiding creature is lightly or heavily obscured.” I don’t see anything in the Rules as Written specifying that the distraction confers disadvantage on a Wisdom (Perception) check. The quote about distraction in the hiding rules was advantage on an attack roll not on a Dexterity (Stealth) check.
In most normal cases, detection of hiding creatures will be by sound rather than by sight. Being heavily obscured is usually necessary but not sufficient to stay undetected.
The disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight (emphasis mine) under lightly obscured conditions is probably mostly meant to apply when it is used in place of the removed Intelligence (Search) skill to find inanimate objects. Most checks to find a hidden character do not rely on sight and therefore the disadvantage does not apply.
As for being invisible and then staying quiet, that is an excellent example of a Dexterity (stealth) check, so nothing about it renders them automatically successfully hidden.
Is there anything that still seems inconsistent? |
| #5lawrencehoyJul 07, 2014 22:32:44 | Point # 14 is an incorrect inference: the Disadvantage from obscuration is applied to the observer when they are obscured; it is not a factor of the hidden creature/object being obscured. That is why it is only imposed on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
Point #15 would still require active Dexterity (Stealth) checks, to remain hidden and be subject to Passive and Active Perception checks; unless the hidden creature is completely still and completely silent and can't be smelled.
Points # 16 & 17 are also an incorrect inferences: see above comment on Point # 14.
Statuses of Stealth 1) Complete lack of odor (as well as taste and touch) would also be required for something to be Impossible to Notice. 2a-d), 3), & 4)The target's state of obscuration does not affect the observer's Perception checks. Even relying on sight alone, a person who can see clearly can see movement in the obscured area (unless the target has total cover from an immovable object, such as a wall or statue); but, the observer would still be able to use all their other senses, in a chance to detect the hidden creature/object. That is why the Disadvantage (or Blinded condition) only applies when it is the observer who is within the obscured area; and, only when the Perception check is reliant on sight.
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| #6DaganevJul 07, 2014 23:54:20 | The main thing I've noticed people missing is the basic definitons of the words. Some people seem to require that words be defined by the rules themselves rather than by the english language. Being "Hidden" means all the things that hidden means in english. They don't know where you are, and can't see you or hear you. If they do know where you are, you aren't hidden. |
| (Reply to #6)pauldanielj2 |
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| #8Sword_of_SpiritJul 08, 2014 12:41:53 | Thanks for the responses everyone! I'll try to address the individual points, but I'm coming to believe that part of the problem is that the rules have straight-up changed from the playtest, and we shouldn't interpret anything based on previous definitions. Instead, I should start looking for internal definitions in the Basic D&D document.
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| #9Cyber-DaveJul 08, 2014 14:39:02 | You are sort of wrong. The game lists the baseline assumption as being "cannot hide if you are not heavily obfuscated, or have a racial/class ability that lets you hide via some other means." The game also holds particularly strict adherence to these rules during combat. It, however, notes that a DM can set these rules aside when he deems fit. |
| #10Sword_of_SpiritJul 08, 2014 14:53:23 | Having re-examined the document, I think my new theory is correct: The rules are not like the playtest rules.
I’ll provide some revisions to my previous points at the end of the post for those who may be interested, but first I’ll just give the simple conclusion.
New Conclusion
The rules never say: -You have to be heavily concealed to hide
In fact, all the rules explicitly say about conditions needed to hide is: -You can’t hide from a creature that can see you -Making a noise reveals your position -Most creatures are alert during combat and if you come out of hiding to approach them they usually see you
That’s it. They never make any requirements beyond that. Everything else is DM discretion.
The rules also appear to consistently make an implied distinction between initiating an attempt to hide, and staying hidden (for instance, if you have already hidden and new creatures show up with a chance of noticing you). The opposed checks are identical, but the condition for initiating an attempt is more restrictive.
I believe the section on penalties to Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight in lightly obscured areas is not intended to deal with noticing creatures, only with objects that rely solely on sight. First problem eliminated.
Here is the simplified essence of what I think the intention of the rules is:
You can hide whenever it makes sense, whether that means slinking away from a distracted guard, hiding in the shadows in an alley, moving stealthily through the forest, or any other situation where the DM feels it would be possible. However, you can’t initiate an attempt to hide from a creature that is looking at you, and if you reveal yourself to a creature (such as by making a loud noise or moving into the open in a direction they are looking), you can’t normally stay hidden. In combat everyone is usually considered to be looking at everyone else, though the DM may make exceptions in some circumstances (allowing a character to stay hidden while they approach a distracted creature, as an example). Some characters, such as lightfoot halflings and wood elves, have special abilities that allow them to initiate an attempt to hide even from creatures that are looking at them, in certain circumstances. ... If a creature is particularly distracted (if they are traveling at a fast pace, for instance) the DM might impose disadvantage on their Wisdom (Perception) checks to notice a hidden creature.
How does that sound?
Detailed Revisions (I made these in case someone is still looking at my point by point analysis. I now believe the premise is flawed due to relying on playtest concepts, and the Principles Created and accompanying analysis (such as the Five States of Stealth) are obsolete. The revisions are intended to correct specific errors. The Relevant Texts and Principles Extracted (1-15) are still accurate, with the revisions below.) 13. The minimum requirements for potentially spotting a hiding creature are that they leave signs of their passage and are not inaudible (such as via the silence spell) and otherwise undetectable (see 9a) -Added “and otherwise undetectable” 14. There are situations where characters take some kind of penalty to Wisdom (Perception) checks to notice hidden creatures that are not heavily obscured, and the attempt potentially includes visual components. (10a, refer to 9b for background). Although the language of the -Removed 10b from references 15. Already hidden creatures can potentially remain hidden from creatures when only lightly obscured (as determined by opposed checks) -Rephrased to clarify intent 16. -Deleted 17. –Deleted *Impossible to Notice*: It is normally impossible to notice a creature that is invisible (heavily obscured) and inaudible (such as magically silenced), and otherwise undetectable -Added “and otherwise undetectable” *Disadvantage to Notice*: The perceiver take disadvantage to Wisdom (Perception) checks, or -5 to passive Wisdom (Perception) score vs. hiding creatures in any of the following circumstances: a) - Deleted b) The creature it completely undetectable to any sense other vision and is lightly obscured and already hidden -Revised to match new interpretation of light obscurement and Wisdom (Perception) penalties c) - Deleted d) The perceivers are traveling at a fast pace, or the DM otherwise rules that the perceivers are sufficiently distracted -Revised to accord with new interpretation—not explicitly supported by any of the numbered references *Normal Opposed Checks*: -Deleted, mostly irrelevant with new interpretation *Automatically Unhidden*: You become automatically unhidden in any of the following circumstances: a) You move into the open in a direction a creature is looking -Replaced with better interpretation b) You make a distinct noise (such as shouting or knocking over a vase) *Ineligible to Hide*: You cannot even attempt to hide in any of the following circumstances: a) A perceiver currently sees you, whether or not you have light concealment b) You are not trying to be quiet
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| #11Sword_of_SpiritJul 08, 2014 14:54:55 |
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| #12OverpromisesJul 08, 2014 15:56:01 | Page 60, Hiding, second paragraph: “You can’t hide from a creature that can see you, and if you
The end of the same section directs to lightly or heavily obscured rules in chapter 8, page 65
I think the entirety of the stealth Rules as Written can be condensed to:
Creature can make a Dexterity (Stealth) check to hide if either heavily obscured or some other specific exception allows. If in combat, must use the Hide action to do this. If already hidden, special circumstances determined by DM may allow an attack with advantage against a distracted target even though you come out of hiding to make the attack.
Hidden creature can be detected by:
Disadvantage on a Wisdom (Perception) check to notice the hidden creature if:
Lightly obscured areas include but are not limited to: dim light, patchy fog, and moderate foliage. Heavily obscured areas include but are not limited to: darkness, opaque fog, and dense foliage. |
| #13Cyber-DaveJul 09, 2014 7:22:44 |
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| #14Cyber-DaveJul 08, 2014 21:22:10 |
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| #15RhennyJul 08, 2014 22:45:36 | One part of Hiding says this:
~In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger
I wonder if they worded it this way to pave the way for optional rules in Advanced (DMG)? To me, it seems as if they are paving the way for "Facing" rules.
A hidden creature can attempt to sneak up on a creature if the creature if that creature is facing away from the sneaking creature.
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| #16moes1980Jul 08, 2014 22:50:44 |
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| #17Cyber-DaveJul 08, 2014 23:52:08 |
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| #18lawrencehoyJul 09, 2014 0:56:38 |
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| (Reply to #7)Daganev |
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| (Reply to #13)Overpromises |
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| #21Cyber-DaveJul 09, 2014 7:51:31 |
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| #22OverpromisesJul 09, 2014 8:36:44 |
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| (Reply to #18)moes1980 |
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| #24Cyber-DaveJul 09, 2014 10:36:34 |
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| #25Cyber-DaveJul 09, 2014 17:26:59 |
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| #26moes1980Jul 09, 2014 13:14:34 | @cyber-Dave, I believe the interpretation with your example would be that anything outside the torchlight's total radius would be heavily obscured. The torchlight creates an area of bright light. So, I would not, with using my interpretation, say that the thief in darkness cannot see the person holding the torch because that is an area that is not heavily obscured.
And if you want to start talking about pragmatic contexts, I don't think it is very pragmatic to think that you can automatically notice someone unless they are 100 percent concealed. That just dosn't make sense. If I go walking through the woods on a trail I can't just assume I will automatically notice some one half hidden behind a tree 50 feet off in the brush because he is not 100 percent hiden is not realistic or pragmatic.
As for the examples with the ambushers, the rules do not state that "if a hidden creature emerges in dim light he is automatically detected." Instead it says dim light gives disatvantage to perception checks, not auto detect. That rule makes no sense if it's an auto detect. Instead, if the ambushers were in dim light a check with disatvantage would be made in order to spot the ambushers and avoid being surprised. But, if the ambushers were off in total darkness and compleatly obscured, it is impossible to spot them with sight and would be impossible to avoid a suprise round (I suppose you could allow a perception check to notice heavy breathing or a blade being unsheathed but this would only indicate that something is out there and would avoid the suprise round, but not reveal what is out there or mitigate the disatvantage to ranged attacks. Either way, once the ambushers unleash arrows from the darkness return fire is possible but at disatvantage to attack.
The big difference here is that ambushing during daylight means yiu reveal your position and can be attacked. But attacking from total darkness, and assuming you have night vision, then attacking does not mitigate the benifits of total concealment (advantage to attack, disatvantage to being attacked, and able to make stealth checks while people are looking right at your direction without any other kind of cover). Conversely, the benifits of partial concealment is only that people have disatvantage to notice you, and once they do notice you, the benifits of concealment are lost (unless it also grants an AC bonus for being cover).
But if you allways have to have total concealment to hide than the rules for partial concealment make no sense unless you want to say that they can stack. But if total concealment renders one blinded, then how in the world would that ever stack with partial concealment? A light concealing fog adds no extra benifit to trying to hide if it is already total darkness, pragmatically speaking.
And again, the adventure has in several places creatures hiding without total concealment. I already gave the example of goblins hiding in a thicket that dosnt offer total concealment. But you can also look at monster stats for the Grick which has Stone Camoflauge and reads as follows: "The Grick has advantage on its dexterity (stealth) check when it attempts to hide in rocky terrain." Now, this ability makes no sense if hiding requires total concealment as the term "stone camouflage" and it's limit to "rocky terrain" suggests this ability is all about sight. Since total concealment counts as being blind, camouflage would have no added benifite. Essentially, the ability makes no sense if total concealment is required, because you would never be able to see directly at the Grick any way.
Compair this to the twig blight's False Appearence ability: "The blight resembles a dead shrub. While it remains motionless it can hide without being out of sight." Note that it does not say the blight can hide without total concealment. Also, you can still spot the blight for what it is if you make your check. The Grick, however, cannot hide while it is in sight , I.e. Being observed or out in the open. However, if the Grick hides in rocky terrain perception checks have disadvantage (again, the ability would make no sense if this is a purely an audible check). But in the case of both monsters, once you spot the monster you can engage with it as normal. But total concealment is not negated even when you detect a hidden creature. This is because light and heavy obscurity is based on the observer's vision (and is probably why the Grick's abiliy does not state specifically that it is lightly concealed in rocky terrain, because the two things are conceptually different, even if they are mechanically the same).
At this point the only thing that seems off is how "mask of the wild is worded." It's written just like in the old play tests yet the rules for hiding are different. So I don't know if that should have been updated or if the ability actually means you can make a stealth check with light foliage, heavy rain, etc, even if some one is looking at you. It would be an "hide in almost plain sight" ability. So that is confusing. But given how encounters are written, monster abilities work and the criteria of pragmatism and common sense sense, I think this interpretation makes more sense. But, I admit, I can't know for sure until WOTC does an FAQ on it.
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| #27moes1980Jul 09, 2014 15:54:28 | To respond to the original post, I would say there are three levels to stealth, based on the rules and how they are used in the adventure.
1. As long as you are not seen, you can attempt to hide (not seen means you are not out in the open or being observed, it has nothing to do with concealment, as you could be unseen while standing behind some one, yet no one is concealed). In this case you make a stealth vs passive perception or, if activily searching, roll a perception check. If the perception roll beats the stealth roll the hidden creature is found (visually) and thus, cannot try to hide again. if the stealth check equals or beats the perception check you remain hidden until further perception actions succed in noticing the hidden creature or the creature gives itself away by making a noise or moving out into the open (note the rules on ties for contested checks which state that a tie means the situation does not change. This means that, since the observe was not aware of the hidden creature before the check, a tie means they continue to be unaware. It sounds a little funny but this is how it is also written In the adventure).
during this time the hidden creature can attack with a suprise round. If it can attack without giving away it's position immediately (such as, by fireing a ranged weapon instead of running out into the open) he gets advantage on the attack. At this point he is no longer hidden and the fight then continues as normal. It will not be possible to hide again unless something special happens or the creature is able to duck out of sight again (such as turning down an alley and then hiding bend some pile of garbage).
2. Lightly obscured: if vision is lighty obscured from something like dim lighting or a light fog, the passive search suffers -5 and active search has disatvantage. Otherwise, everything else above applies as normal.
3. Heavily obscured: if vision is totaly blocked, due to total darkness, heavy fog, or the hidden creature is invisible, it is not possible to see the hidden creature. However, the creature may give away it's presence if it makes a noise or leaves tracks. Thus, a perception check (passive or active) vs a stealth check reveals that something is present. Also, if the hidden creature makes any noise (it is up to the DM on exactly what counts as noise, as it will vary based on what else is going on) or attacks, it's presence is given away, but still remains unseen. A creature that is totally obscured gets advantage on attack rolls, and attacks against him get disatvantage regardless if some one has successfully perceived the creature's presence. The totally obscured creature can only be targeted if it's presence has been detected or given away. Also, a totally obscured creature that has been detected can spend its action to make a stealth check again even if it is in line of sight of other creatures or has previously given it's position away through attacking. This effect continues until the obscure effect ends (some one lights a torch, the invisibility spell ends, the creature jumps out from behind an illusonary wall to attack, etc).
Note: when conducting exploration, moving at a fast pace imposes disatvantage on perception checks to notice hidden creatures or objects. This is because the characters are not taking the time to be cautious and are thus less aware of their surroundings. Furthermore, a party must travel at a slow pace if they wast to move stealthly. Other conditions might impose disatvantage on perception checks such as being drunk (see poisoned conditioned).
I think that is basically how hiding works.
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| #28Sword_of_SpiritJul 09, 2014 16:47:14 | moes1980, with the new information provided from the Starter Set, I think you're pretty much right. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.
The only thing that isn't really addressed is whether there is disadvantage on Perception checks to try to discern the location of a heavily obscured creature, when a Perception attempt is allowed. I would say disadvantage should apply. If you are sneaking across some leaves in the dim illumination there is disadvantage to notice you. If you are invisible and sneaking across the leaves, it doesn't make a lot of sense that disadvantage to notice wouldn't apply.
"I hear something over there. I think I almost see movement in the shadows, but I'm not sure."
"Just close your eyes dude. Trust me, it works."
It seems to me that the only time disadvantage on perception vs a heavily obscured creature wouldn't apply would be in situations where light obscurement wouldn't even be possible.
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| (Reply to #28)Overpromises |
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| #30Cyber-DaveJul 09, 2014 17:52:44 | First of all, I had a bit of a brain-fart. Torches create two zones of light. Bright light, and then a peripheral zone of dim light. Since I wanted a to be in dim light in my example, I should have set it in the peripheral zone and not holding the torch. I edited my example to account for that. Moving on!
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| #31Cyber-DaveJul 09, 2014 17:59:22 |
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| #32lawrencehoyJul 09, 2014 21:53:04 |
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| #33Cyber-DaveJul 09, 2014 21:56:03 |
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| #34lawrencehoyJul 09, 2014 22:03:01 |
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| #35lawrencehoyJul 09, 2014 22:06:51 |
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| #36Cyber-DaveJul 09, 2014 23:29:41 |
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| #37Cyber-DaveJul 09, 2014 23:37:56 |
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| (Reply to #28)moes1980 |
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| #39moes1980Jul 10, 2014 3:07:08 |
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| (Reply to #36)moes1980 |
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| #41lawrencehoyJul 10, 2014 3:24:15 |
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| #42Cyber-DaveJul 10, 2014 3:27:26 | Moes, I am 100% sure you are wrong. I am not, however, willing to talk in circles. We have been over page 60. We have been over how it says that you cannot hide if you are seen. We have been over how just below that statement there is a heading about being seen. We have been over how that heading directs you to page 65. We have been over how page 65 says only heavy obscurity blocks sight. We have been over the fact that light obscurity still allows some specific types of creatures and classes to hide, which is why it is also listed in the "what you can see" section, and why rules are provided for perception checks vs. lightly obscured targets. I am done having a round-about discussions on this subject. At this point in time, I am going to conclude that you either don't want to know what the rules actually say or you will not be convinced by me. You keep looking for any sort of reference you can use to prove your case, such as the flavor text on page 73, which is obviously flavor text based on the fact that it lists invisibility as a stand alone method of escaping a foe's notice despite the fact that every other rule in the game says that you need to use the hide action while you are invisible to escape notice. The first paragraph of that section is nothing but flavor text that prefaces the actual rules surrounding attacking seen/unseen targets as found in the rest of that section. Meanwhile, you are ignoring what the rules explicitly say on page 60, which is where the rules surrounding using the stealth skill can actually be found. You are also ignoring the rules on page 65, which is where "seen" and "unseen" based on obscurity are defined. You ARE leading people astray. I have warned people. Intentionally or unintentionally (and I believe you are doing this unintentionally, for the record), your position is an example of sophism. There is, however, only so much I can do to stop that. I need to put more time into studying for my 2nd English literature comp exam and less time into arguing about a rule with someone who I am never going to play with anyway. I have done my civic duty. So, I am out. Good luck everyone! I hope all of you find the rules that work best for your table.
P.S. The big difference between this edition and 3e/4e is that 3e/4e codified how objects on the grid gave you cover and exactly what sort of cover you need to hide/remain hidden. This edition does not do that. This edition gives you a base assumption, and then right after giving it the rules state that a DM should sometimes bend the rules based on circumstance. Neither 3e nor 4e did that. As a result, this edition does require more fiat adjudication (which I happen to think is a very good thing--it is the strength of the genre). |
| #43lawrencehoyJul 10, 2014 3:49:55 |
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| #44OverpromisesJul 10, 2014 6:26:25 |
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| #45Cyber-DaveJul 10, 2014 8:31:13 |
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| #46moes1980Jul 10, 2014 10:21:28 | [/quote] |
| #47moes1980Jul 10, 2014 10:58:12 |
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| #48lawrencehoyJul 10, 2014 21:44:21 |
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| (Reply to #48)Overpromises |
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| #50lawrencehoyJul 12, 2014 4:51:46 |
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