Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 JohnnyBlaise Aug 20, 2015 20:36:21	In light of the recent ruling that allows a Life Cleric to use it's class feature on Goodberry (an instant spell that doesn't actually heal anyone as it is cast), I now wonder if Animate Dead can allow the caster to benefit from the temporary hit point feature of Dark One's Blessing and the healing of Grim Harvest.   If a zombie I make with this spell kill's something, does it seem right to anyone else that I would heal 9 hit points and gain like 8 temps?   It seems fair to me, given that I chose to make a zombie instead of casting a fireball, and certainly it would work if I cast a fireball.
#2 Saeviomagy Aug 20, 2015 21:07:07	Sounds correct by any logic that allows the life cleric/goodberry combo.
#3 Noctaem Aug 21, 2015 3:42:55	JohnnyBlaise wrote:
(Reply to #3) Yunru	Noctaem wrote:
(Reply to #4) Danny_Montanny	Yunru wrote:
#6 Yunru Aug 21, 2015 7:02:55	Except Goodberry isn't vastly overpowered. Except as an out-of-combat healing. But then why does that matter?
(Reply to #6) Danny_Montanny	Yunru wrote:
#8 Slagger_the_Chuul Aug 21, 2015 8:26:09	Danny_Montanny wrote:
(Reply to #8) Danny_Montanny	Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:
(Reply to #9) AaronOfBarbaria	Danny_Montanny wrote:
#11 Noctaem Aug 21, 2015 11:11:41	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#12 Yunru Aug 21, 2015 11:43:55	Further if Fireball did 400% damage, everyone would scream overpowered because it's a single action that does 400% damage.
#13 Danny_Montanny Aug 21, 2015 13:57:54	Sure, take the sentence out of context in the response to a post about "in combat" vs "out of combat" actions. That's what I meant when I said, "Actions are irrelevant." The game isn't "combat" alone, so basing an argument soley on "combat" is moot.   If a spell does everything else the same, but the power was increased 400%, you'd call it overpowered. It shouldn't matter if it's 3 HP more per Goodberry or 24d6 more fire damage per Fireball. 400% is 400% is 400% is 400%...
#14 Yunru Aug 21, 2015 14:04:52	Actually I'd say it depends on the spell. And no, healing is combat.
(Reply to #13) AaronOfBarbaria	Danny_Montanny wrote:
(Reply to #14) Danny_Montanny	Yunru wrote:
(Reply to #7) potenequus	Danny_Montanny wrote:
#18 ShinQuickMan Aug 21, 2015 18:30:04	That Grim Reaper/Animate Dead combo isn't really as bad as it looks on paper. For one, wizards aren't the type that are looking to get hurt in the first place and, all things considering, are much too fragile to take such punishment regularly even with full HP between each fight. It also requires some active effort to get this healing; you need to command your undead guys to kill something, meaning you can't get this to work reliably in the most critical situations (ie when you're (close to) dying against tough baddies). Heck, Necromancers with Magic Initiate (Hex) and a bag of worms could accomplish the same thing, and could do so at least three levels earlier, nothing earth shattering there.   As for Goodberry/Disciple of Life, just remember that there are opportunity costs related to this:   1. This requires Multiclassing or the Magic Initiate feat (the latter being usable only once per day) 2. No metal armors, making Life Cleric's bonus proficiency (and both its and the Druid's medium armor proficiency) practically worthless 3. It requires actions to use per berry, making it impractical for combat past the very early levels. 4. Ounce of prevention: you're always better off using your resources to kill things before they could hurt you.   Really, the only use for this is to funnel off unused spell slots into HP for the next day, something that regular Goodberry does just fine without use of this combo.
#19 Ghost_Gallus Aug 21, 2015 19:08:19	Danny_Montanny wrote:
(Reply to #19) Lucas_Blackstone	Ghost_Gallus wrote:
(Reply to #13) Yunru	Danny_Montanny wrote:
#22 jaelis Aug 22, 2015 8:15:02	Goodberry never was useful in combat, why even discuss it in those terms. It was always one of the best out of combat healing spells, now it is 4x better. That's a legit concern.
#23 Coredump00 Aug 23, 2015 9:05:42	1) I'm not overly comfortable with the Goodberry rule. 2) I don't think its overpowered.... out of combat healing is easy and plentiful already 3) I don't think it direclty leads to these other 'combos' 4) No, I don't think your skeleton killing something triggers OOB or Grim Harvest.
(Reply to #23) Saeviomagy	Coredump00 wrote:
(Reply to #24) Coredump00	Saeviomagy wrote:
#26 Quad_Hund Aug 24, 2015 8:16:52	Can someone explain to me the difference between the animate dead/grim harvest combo and either revivify/raise dead/resurrection/true resurrection/reincarnate and grim harvest?     What about fabricating steel with fabricate spell and forging that into a weapon that a PC then uses to kil things with (and grim harvest)?
#27 Quad_Hund Aug 26, 2015 10:46:24	Quad_Hund wrote:
(Reply to #27) Saeviomagy	Quad_Hund wrote:
(Reply to #26) Macv12	Quad_Hund wrote:
#30 JohnnyBlaise Aug 26, 2015 22:05:27	I think I agree with Mocv12 - if i cast dominate person, and use that spell to make someone kill people for me, Id probably grim harvest that.
#31 Quad_Hund Aug 27, 2015 13:21:57	Macv12 wrote:
#32 transcendantviewer Aug 27, 2015 16:16:22	I'm relatively sure the ruling on Goodberry is meant to be exclusive to that spell alone. Other spell interactions that don't seem to make sense (Due to the rather fickle nature of magic) probably shouldn't work. Others are free to disagree, but I still hold that the final decision fallls upon the DM.
#33 LordCorwin Aug 27, 2015 16:26:47	Macv12 wrote:
(Reply to #31) Macv12	Quad_Hund wrote:
#35 Strill Aug 27, 2015 17:25:03	Danny_Montanny wrote:
(Reply to #33) Macv12	LordCorwin wrote:
(Reply to #31) Coredump00	Quad_Hund wrote:
(Reply to #33) Coredump00	LordCorwin wrote:
#39 LordCorwin Aug 27, 2015 20:17:14	Macv12 wrote:
#40 LordCorwin Aug 27, 2015 20:22:32	Coredump00 wrote:
#41 Quad_Hund Aug 28, 2015 7:38:39	Coredump00 wrote:
#42 JohnnyBlaise Aug 28, 2015 9:10:43	I think, despite clear language to the control regarding "Instantaneous" effects, it really comes down to tracing the weave.  So, in the case of the goodberry, you take healing magic from yourself and infuse it into the weave around and through the berries you made.  In the case of a "controlled" undead (or any other similar effect, like dominate or suggestion), there is still a tendril of the weave going from you to the target, along which the life energy can flow back to the caster.  With something you do not control with magic, there is no thread of weave, therefore, no life for you.  The pact blade, being a weapon completely existing via permanent shadoweave bonding directly to your soul, clearly would work all the time.
(Reply to #40) Coredump00	LordCorwin wrote:
(Reply to #41) Coredump00	Quad_Hund wrote:
#45 LordCorwin Aug 28, 2015 13:10:06	Actions? Really? I think you are far to invested emotionally in this debate. Unless you are envisioning my typing skills I don't know what you even mean by that. And 'prove'? Care to show me where I tried to prove anything? All I did was adress someone else's faulty logic. As for hyperbolic. You've already set a high bar. It will be difficult for me to reach it.
#46 LordCorwin Aug 28, 2015 13:11:04	Coredump00 wrote:
(Reply to #46) Coredump00	LordCorwin wrote:
(Reply to #39) Macv12	LordCorwin wrote:
#49 LordCorwin Aug 28, 2015 18:00:26	Coredump00 wrote:
#50 LordCorwin Aug 28, 2015 18:06:36	Macv12 wrote:
#51 Netherholde Aug 28, 2015 18:54:05	To me anyway, this seems pretty clear that it Wouldn't work.    The Goodberry is created by the magic and enhanced by the person casting it for that purpose. It has a singular effect, to heal which is enhanced by the caster casting the spell.   The Necromancer creating undead with magic gets just that, a creature that can do physical actions and damage. That's what the magic's purpose was. To suggest that the undead killing an opponent would give the necromancer THP is also to suggest any damage the undead takes is also transfered to the necromancer. His connection to the undead is to the magic that creates / empowers the undead, nothing more. So he can enforce his will to what the undead should do, he however has no other connection to them, such as sensing via it's senses, life connection ext, all things that would need additional spells to create such bonds.   Otherwise to go by the logic this works, then it would make just as much sence for that any caster using a summoning spell to call / create creatures to also be able to focus their magic through them; cast a fireball and they all cast a fireball, and if the creature eats something you benefit from it, and if the creature gets a beneficial spell cast on it then you get that too. The list would go on and the game would be broken.
(Reply to #50) Macv12	LordCorwin wrote:
(Reply to #51) Macv12	Netherholde wrote:
(Reply to #53) Netherholde	Macv12 wrote:
(Reply to #54) Yunru	Netherholde wrote:
#56 LordCorwin Aug 29, 2015 11:59:46	Netherholde wrote:
(Reply to #56) Coredump00	LordCorwin wrote:
(Reply to #49) Coredump00	LordCorwin wrote:
(Reply to #55) Netherholde	Yunru wrote:
#60 Yunru Aug 30, 2015 5:31:06	It's a chain of cause of effect. And no, it doesn't allow the silly things you allow. Spell -> Undead -> Damage: spell caused damage. Spell -> Undead -> Eats: you didn't eat, but your spell caused something to be eaten. Spell -> Undead -/-> Fireball: Fireball is an entirely seperate entity. You can't cast Fireball "through" the undead, unless the undead already could.
(Reply to #54) Macv12	Netherholde wrote:
#62 LordCorwin Aug 30, 2015 9:30:22	Coredump00 wrote:
#63 Elfcrusher Aug 31, 2015 5:46:07	There are two possibilities: the Goodberry ruling is a specific exception to the general rule, or the Goodberry ruling is an example of the general rule.   If it's an example, then (as many of the more outrageous examples above illustrate) the game quickly breaks.  And not Zaardnar breaks, but really breaks.  The Grim Harvest + Zombie example is bad enough, but there's nothing to prevent a slide toward things like the blacksmithing example.  (What Necromantic wizard wouldn't learn blacksmithing and make weapons for his whole party?  Heck, make weapons for a whole army.  There's no specified range limit, after all!)   Since interpreting it as a general rule is game-breaking, it must be a specific exception.   Q.E.F.D.
(Reply to #60) Netherholde	Yunru wrote:
(Reply to #63) Netherholde	Elfcrusher wrote:
(Reply to #55) posineg	Yunru wrote:
#67 Nachturnus Aug 31, 2015 9:14:46	posineg wrote:
(Reply to #67) posineg	Nachturnus wrote:
#69 Elfcrusher Aug 31, 2015 19:51:51	Netherholde wrote:
#70 Macv12 Aug 31, 2015 17:36:04	Goodberry and Disciple of Life working by fiat (that is, they shouldn't work logically, but JC says they do) isn't interesting. <_< So if we're just going to agree that it shouldn't work in the first place, fine. I'm just interested in an explanation of it and other features that makes sense.   Goodberry is no more direct that Animate Dead. Goodberry makes an inert thing with magic. People who use their own action to eat it get healed. It's fire-and-forget.   If the animator of dead has to command their undead to kill something, that's even more direct than Goodberry is. Not only is that undead only extant because their spell created it (otherwise it would just be a "dead"), they consciously ordered it to do damage and kill something.   It's less direct than Eldritch Blast, but more direct than Goodberry. That zombie is your murder weapon. The only arguments I see for why the zombie shouldn't count apply equally to Goodberry. Animate Dead doesn't directly damage, it animates some bodies with killing power. Goodberry doesn't directly heal, it enchants some berries with healing power. Of course the zombies don't have to kill, you could have them carry things or launch them with catapults. And the berries don't have to heal; you could throw them, shove too many in someone's throat and kill them, trade them as currency, use them to cheaply distract someone with Detect Magic, etc. If left alone, the zombie won't do anything, but if interacted with it will "defend itself" (which is non-specific, but certainly allows for it to kill its attacker). If left alone, the berries won't do anything, but if interacted with (by eating) they will heal.   Honestly my gut instinct would probably be that DoL affects Goodberry because it's got a healing amount in the description, but that doesn't make it consistent. Listing only healing is good enough for Goodberry because nothing else the berries can do requires statistics. Had Animate Dead been written to include "the zombie can attack, doing X damage on a hit," it would be the same thing as Goodberry. But it functionally does have that text, just abbreviated, as "the DM has the stats." The ability of the zombie to damage things directly is right there, in that note. There is a difference between that and Fireball as far as "kill with a spell" goes, but not between it and Goodberry.   To me, a necromancer who can suck life from those his undead minions kill, before adding them to the army, sounds awesome. I'm good with that concept. The problem is things like Fabricate. I'll state my position on this again, since I probablt flubbed it the first time: by whatever logic berry+DoL works, zombie+GH also works. But the latter is more restricted than the former, since the berry can be passed off to other people and be totally outside the caster's control, while the zombie can't. So assuming that berry+DoL functions legally in game terms is what can lead to problems like Fabricate+GH; the effect on Animate Dead is just collateral damage. Figuring out why berry+DoL should work, and maybe zombie+GH, yet fabricate+GH should not work, is my ideal.   The justification of a magical link seems fine. It's also arbitrary, since neither of those features (nor Dark One's Blessing) talk about "links," and you (the DM) can freely declare that any spell does or doesn't have one. Goodberry: your spell's magic lingers in the berries, with the increased magnitude. Animate Dead: as a specialized necromancer, you know how to manipulate the mental link to send life force back to you (or not). Fabricate: your magic leaves the product totally, leaving no link. This is just gap-filling that justifies why certain interactions should work the way we want them to, rather than reasoning about how they would work going off the rules alone, so it's not what I would prefer.   Just trying to show that I can be reasonable :P And no, I didn't take anything said here as "finger pointing." It's an interesting discussion.
#71 AaronOfBarbaria Aug 31, 2015 20:15:40	I thought the difference was simple: goodberry lists an amount of healing, disciple of life augments any amount of healing listed by a spell.   And for contrast: animate dead does not list damage or kill a target without dealing damage, grim harvest applies when you kill a target with a spell, so it has no relationship to animate dead.
#72 Macv12 Sep 01, 2015 19:22:47	My only response would be to refer you to points I just made, maybe reword them and make them a little bigger to pass them off as a new version. Guess nothing more is going to be said.
(Reply to #71) Saeviomagy	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#74 Elfcrusher Sep 02, 2015 10:28:18	No. You are way overthinking this.   The general rule is "When X is triggered by casting a spell, X must be a direct result of the spell".  Not because this is explicitly stated in RAW but because the alternative interpretation breaks the entire game.  Q.E.F.D.   The exception is: "Except if you're a Life cleric and you're casting Goodberry, in which case it's an indirect result."  And the logic behind that is: "Goodberry is meant to be balanced with other healing spells.  If it doesn't get the bonus, by logical extension it would be underpowered for Life Clerics and would thus never get used, and we want players to have actual meaningful choices."   It's as simple as that.  It's a rules exception.  All the theories about healing magic and whatever are nice fluff to support the rule, but the underlying rationale is game balance*, not Philosophy of Magic.  (*And I'm not claiming it actually achieves game balance, just that that's the reason for the ruling.)   Good grief.
#75 BloodMoon666 Sep 12, 2015 6:22:16	Macv12 you're wrong in that an animated corpse can't be shared, given or taken(unlike goodberry as you claimed). Take another necromancer for instance. If your character animates a zombie, and another necromancer uses his class ability to take control of said zombie and orders it to kill you - does that mean every time you get knocked to 0 you gain temporary hit points because you created the zombie and thus be credited for the kill and be up on your feet again? How about a dominate monster spell from another caster?
(Reply to #75) Macv12	BloodMoon666 wrote: