Are there any big downsides to the Warlock? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Toshi Sep 20, 2014 20:11:12	Reading through the warlock class I find myself saying "wow" again and again. Their abilities, 9 levels of spells, invocations to name a few. Looking at their invocations it seems they can "at will" do things that other classes can do perhaps even better. To tell you the truth the warlock seems incredibly powerful to me. Are there big downsides to the warlock that balance them out?
#2 Novacat Sep 20, 2014 20:21:50	Warlocks have the best at-will damage of all the full-casters, but this comes at the cost of burst damage. They get, AT MOST, 4 real spell slots per short rest, and then 1 casting each of their level 6+ spells. If you don't get any short rests during the adventuring day, or if you only get one, the warlock will have less power than a similarly-built wizard or cleric. They also have far fewer spells known than their peers, making their overall utility suffer. Sure, they can do terrible things to the bad guys, but their toolbox is the smallest of all the casters.
(Reply to #2) Ashrym	Novacat wrote:
#4 Tony_Vargas Sep 20, 2014 20:48:37	Warlocks seem to have more to gain by taking a short rest than any other class. So we have unlimited-use-heavy classes, classes with varying levels of short-rest recharge resources (with Warlock and, I suppose Battlemaster as the standouts), and, of course, long-rest-recharge-heavy classes (though all with at least marginal unlimited use stuff). That mix makes the composition of the adventuring 'day' pretty important. The guidelines in the DM's basic pdf at least imply a 6-8 encounter day with two short rests between long rests. Sounds like the Warlock would measure up pretty well to other casters over such a 'day.'
#5 Ashrym Sep 20, 2014 20:48:38	Toshi wrote:
(Reply to #4) DS.397	Tony_Vargas wrote:
(Reply to #6) Ashrym	DS.397 wrote:
#8 DS.397 Sep 20, 2014 21:50:44	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #5) Toshi	Ashrym wrote:
#10 FallingIcicle Sep 20, 2014 23:20:34	Toshi wrote:
#11 Keendk Sep 21, 2014 0:08:01	Toshi wrote:
(Reply to #8) Ashrym	DS.397 wrote:
(Reply to #9) Ashrym	Toshi wrote:
#14 Psikerlord Sep 21, 2014 0:25:35	Tony_Vargas wrote:
#15 OgreBane99 Sep 21, 2014 6:29:28	Warlocks are like ketchup. Everyone likes to dip into them. Warlock 2 + 18 levels of any other Cha-based class would be a lot of fun I think. I've been playing a warlock for the past several weeks and I've been pretty disappointed in their spell list. You can get some good offensive spells, but it takes away any opporunity to get fun utility spells.
(Reply to #14) Ashrym	Psikerlord wrote:
(Reply to #12) Tydanosaurus	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #17) Ashrym	Tydanosaurus wrote:
#19 Polaris Sep 22, 2014 15:45:59	Short rests aren't listed in the section on the adventuring day that I saw either, but the opportunities for them are still built into the story flow with natural break points where the characters have the opportunity to take a short rest. There are enough short rest mechanics that at least 1 makes sense most of the time so as not to punish some classes base on those class selections, and 1-2 seems pretty good.
#20 Yunru Sep 22, 2014 16:24:29	The main problem with the Warlock is their main schtick: Eldritch Blast and Hex. Dip two levels and you've Eldritch Blast with +Cha mod on each hit, something else (I usually take Devil's Sight), and Hex. Or if you're unwilling to dip two levels for whatever reason, Magic Initiate gets you just Hex and Eldritch Blast (no +cha mod).
#21 Polaris Sep 22, 2014 17:24:12	Yunru wrote:
#22 FallingIcicle Sep 22, 2014 18:28:17	Polaris wrote:
#23 Polaris Sep 22, 2014 18:32:58	FallingIcicle wrote:
(Reply to #19) Ashrym	Polaris wrote:
(Reply to #20) Ashrym	Yunru wrote:
#26 Psikerlord Sep 23, 2014 1:11:32	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #26) Ashrym	Psikerlord wrote:
#28 mellored Sep 23, 2014 5:43:49	Warlocks are about 2/3d's caster and 1/3 fighter. 4d10+20 cantrips sounds like alot, but they can't get archery style, sharpshooter, crossbow expertise, or other weapon boosting stuff. It also doesn't get any of the secondary benifits that Dex does like saves and inititve, and bladelocks are pretty MAD. Having spells recharge on a short rest sounds good, but wizards and land druids also recharge, and sorcerer's get spell points for extra potential slots. They also loose alot of the felxibility those classes get, and their spell list is also not quite so amazing. (No meteor swarm). Clerics get armor and channel divinity. Bards get insperation, and can get any spell. All and all, it's pretty balanced. The only thing that's might be out of line is quicken + eldrich blast. And if any adjustments, i agree with polaris, making it a class feature and not a cantrip would stop that combo.
#29 Ganymede425 Sep 23, 2014 20:15:03	Polaris wrote:
#30 2Chlorobutanal Sep 23, 2014 20:56:26	Eldritch blast can potentially receive 4 times the bonus damage of a fire bolt, including the hex spell and Agonizing Blast feature. It can also push a target up to 40' per action. This doen't make it necessarily the best "attack" in the game, but it does give it several significant advantages over fire bolt.
#31 Ganymede425 Sep 23, 2014 20:59:22	2Chlorobutanal wrote:
#32 Polaris Sep 23, 2014 22:06:23	Ganymede425 wrote:
(Reply to #28) Ashrym	mellored wrote:
#34 Polaris Sep 24, 2014 3:14:40	Ashrym wrote:
#35 mellored Sep 24, 2014 6:59:28	Ashrym wrote:
#36 mellored Sep 24, 2014 7:04:32	Polaris wrote:
#37 Polaris Sep 24, 2014 7:32:36	mellored wrote:
#38 Ashrym Sep 25, 2014 0:28:42	Focus on the number of slots is the error people make. 2 slots means very little when you can silent image and false life at will at those lower levels, and all casters are either resorting to weapons or relying on cantrips. When we're at 5th level and the warlock can cast two 3rd level slots as other spell casters. The slots cover the best level of spells at the same rate other casters get the same spells (ignoring any short rests). It's the lower level spells that the warlock is competing with in his or her other abilities. When I'm launching d10+4 twice at will and someone else has 3 scorching rays that do 2d6 each my at-will is almost identical (almost) to those scorching rays (19 vs 21) so those spells aren't doing squat in comparison, in my mind. When those most other casters cantrips don't have any option to add ability modifier damage and I'm adding it twice already and twice before the other casters who get can add it once. 2d10+8 beats 2d10+0 or 2d10+4 when we get there. One short rest and the warlock's four 3rd level spells beat that wizard's three 3rd level spells and the sorc can trade all his points in without the short rest for a third 3rd level spell. Then the warlock's at will damage is still better than their lower level spell slots for damage. Their advantage is the warlock no longer has lower level spells available where the other classes do outside of damage and while the warlock can fit in 1 or 2 at-will first level spells the list is limited in functionality. Warlocks start good, taper off as other casters advance, and then start picking up the pace with better at will spells in the invocations, increased slots, and mystic arcanum around 9th level. Getting back to my earlier comment, it's the large number of 5th level spell slots that come with several short rests that leads to warlocks being far superior to other casters because they can do a lot with all those 5th level slots. The only real comparison is between the additional lower level slots versus some nice at-will abilities at higher levels. Higher level abilities are not entirely dissimilar even with a more restricted spell list.
#39 Yunru Sep 25, 2014 3:54:24	Actually you're discounting the fact that the other casters do get ways to add stat mods to damage rolls. More realistically it'd be: 2(1d10+4) [19] Vs 3(2d6+4) [33]
#40 mellored Sep 25, 2014 6:37:54	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #38) Tydanosaurus	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #40) Ashrym	mellored wrote:
#43 Sword_of_Spirit Sep 25, 2014 13:16:55	Question for those who believe that warlocks need AB per RAW just to barely keep up with other casters. If they only got nerfed AB (applies only once per casting), how many short rests would you say they would need to stay competitive with other casters?
#44 kilpatds Sep 25, 2014 14:43:58	Don't know if it could be done, until you allow for the possibility of taking a short rest in the middle of a combat? (Edit: Also don't think a nerfed Warlock would fall that far outside of the range of other classes, given no short rests. We're not dealing with a particularly tight balance right now. And higher level casters are again really really good. And I'm also not convinced that the Warlock honestly keeps up with other casters with the non-nerfed EB invocations, no matter the frequency of short rests. Well, at a certain frequency, the out-of-combat utility might be higher. Might.)
#45 Mommy_was_an_Orc Sep 25, 2014 16:42:59	The big issue is mechanically, the assumption is that a given day has about 2-3 short rests, yet DMG hasn't said so yet. And it isn't 100% clear that R&D agrees with their mechanics. Wizards get a huge boost from a short rest, Battlemaster Fighters are boring if they don't get a short rest, so 0-1 shouldn't be common numbers. That gets to 2-3, probably where one fights approximately 2-3 tough fights between a short rest. But that's so much time out of a day that it begs the question of how the party might be achieving 2-3 hours of short rests in scenarios where it seems unlikely. Such as a dungeon or other area. I think if Warlock gets 2 rests per day, it serves a relatively solid caster role in addition to other options once it can expect Hex to last through a short rest. That's a big assumption, though.
#46 kilpatds Sep 25, 2014 16:52:03	On trying to figure out the number of short rests, remember that the "no clerics" healing mechanic is, to a rough estimate: "you can heal to full 1/day, split into <level> chunks.". So there aren't enough HP in the party to survive 9 tough fights a day (w/o clerics or other dedicated healing resources, like a druid with a haversack full of healing berries) (Edit: in fact there aren't enough HP to really survive 4 tough fights w/o a magic healing fountain. Clerics pressed into duty of "magic healing fountains" end up spending so many spell slots on that that they basically lose their casting feature until higher levels).
#47 FallingIcicle Sep 25, 2014 17:02:02	Sword_of_Spirit wrote:
#48 Mommy_was_an_Orc Sep 25, 2014 17:20:15	kilpatds wrote:
(Reply to #41) Ashrym	Tydanosaurus wrote:
(Reply to #43) Ashrym	Sword_of_Spirit wrote:
(Reply to #46) Ashrym	kilpatds wrote:

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

Toshi

Sep 20, 2014 20:11:12

Reading through the warlock class I find myself saying "wow" again and again. Their abilities, 9 levels of spells, invocations to name a few. Looking at their invocations it seems they can "at will" do things that other classes can do perhaps even better.

To tell you the truth the warlock seems incredibly powerful to me. Are there big downsides to the warlock that balance them out?

Novacat

Sep 20, 2014 20:21:50

Warlocks have the best at-will damage of all the full-casters, but this comes at the cost of burst damage. They get, AT MOST, 4 real spell slots per short rest, and then 1 casting each of their level 6+ spells. If you don't get any short rests during the adventuring day, or if you only get one, the warlock will have less power than a similarly-built wizard or cleric.

They also have far fewer spells known than their peers, making their overall utility suffer. Sure, they can do terrible things to the bad guys, but their toolbox is the smallest of all the casters.

(Reply to #2)

Ashrym

Novacat wrote:

Tony_Vargas

Sep 20, 2014 20:48:37

Warlocks seem to have more to gain by taking a short rest than any other class. So we have unlimited-use-heavy classes, classes with varying levels of short-rest recharge resources (with Warlock and, I suppose Battlemaster as the standouts), and, of course, long-rest-recharge-heavy classes (though all with at least marginal unlimited use stuff).

That mix makes the composition of the adventuring 'day' pretty important. The guidelines in the DM's basic pdf at least imply a 6-8 encounter day with two short rests between long rests. Sounds like the Warlock would measure up pretty well to other casters over such a 'day.'

Ashrym

Sep 20, 2014 20:48:38

Toshi wrote:

(Reply to #4)

DS.397

Tony_Vargas wrote:

(Reply to #6)

Ashrym

DS.397 wrote:

DS.397

Sep 20, 2014 21:50:44

Ashrym wrote:

(Reply to #5)

Toshi

Ashrym wrote:

#10

FallingIcicle

Sep 20, 2014 23:20:34

Toshi wrote:

#11

Keendk

Sep 21, 2014 0:08:01

Toshi wrote:

(Reply to #8)

Ashrym

DS.397 wrote:

(Reply to #9)

Ashrym

Toshi wrote:

#14

Psikerlord

Sep 21, 2014 0:25:35

Tony_Vargas wrote:

#15

OgreBane99

Sep 21, 2014 6:29:28

Warlocks are like ketchup. Everyone likes to dip into them.

Warlock 2 + 18 levels of any other Cha-based class would be a lot of fun I think. I've been playing a warlock for the past several weeks and I've been pretty disappointed in their spell list. You can get some good offensive spells, but it takes away any opporunity to get fun utility spells.

(Reply to #14)

Ashrym

Psikerlord wrote:

(Reply to #12)

Tydanosaurus

Ashrym wrote:

(Reply to #17)

Ashrym

Tydanosaurus wrote:

#19

Polaris

Sep 22, 2014 15:45:59

Short rests aren't listed in the section on the adventuring day that I saw either, but the opportunities for them are still built into the story flow with natural break points where the characters have the opportunity to take a short rest. There are enough short rest mechanics that at least 1 makes sense most of the time so as not to punish some classes base on those class selections, and 1-2 seems pretty good.

#20

Yunru

Sep 22, 2014 16:24:29

The main problem with the Warlock is their main schtick: Eldritch Blast and Hex.

Dip two levels and you've Eldritch Blast with +Cha mod on each hit, something else (I usually take Devil's Sight), and Hex.

Or if you're unwilling to dip two levels for whatever reason, Magic Initiate gets you just Hex and Eldritch Blast (no +cha mod).

#21

Polaris

Sep 22, 2014 17:24:12

Yunru wrote:

#22

FallingIcicle

Sep 22, 2014 18:28:17

Polaris wrote:

#23

Polaris

Sep 22, 2014 18:32:58

FallingIcicle wrote:

(Reply to #19)

Ashrym

Polaris wrote:

(Reply to #20)

Ashrym

Yunru wrote:

#26

Psikerlord

Sep 23, 2014 1:11:32

Ashrym wrote:

(Reply to #26)

Ashrym

Psikerlord wrote:

#28

mellored

Sep 23, 2014 5:43:49

Warlocks are about 2/3d's caster and 1/3 fighter.

4d10+20 cantrips sounds like alot, but they can't get archery style, sharpshooter, crossbow expertise, or other weapon boosting stuff. It also doesn't get any of the secondary benifits that Dex does like saves and inititve, and bladelocks are pretty MAD.

Having spells recharge on a short rest sounds good, but wizards and land druids also recharge, and sorcerer's get spell points for extra potential slots. They also loose alot of the felxibility those classes get, and their spell list is also not quite so amazing. (No meteor swarm).

Clerics get armor and channel divinity. Bards get insperation, and can get any spell.

All and all, it's pretty balanced.

The only thing that's might be out of line is quicken + eldrich blast.

And if any adjustments, i agree with polaris, making it a class feature and not a cantrip would stop that combo.

#29

Ganymede425

Sep 23, 2014 20:15:03

Polaris wrote:

#30

2Chlorobutanal

Sep 23, 2014 20:56:26

Eldritch blast can potentially receive 4 times the bonus damage of a fire bolt, including the hex spell and Agonizing Blast feature. It can also push a target up to 40' per action.

This doen't make it necessarily the best "attack" in the game, but it does give it several significant advantages over fire bolt.

#31

Ganymede425

Sep 23, 2014 20:59:22

2Chlorobutanal wrote:

#32

Polaris

Sep 23, 2014 22:06:23

Ganymede425 wrote:

(Reply to #28)

Ashrym

mellored wrote:

#34

Polaris

Sep 24, 2014 3:14:40

Ashrym wrote:

#35

mellored

Sep 24, 2014 6:59:28

Ashrym wrote:

#36

mellored

Sep 24, 2014 7:04:32

Polaris wrote:

#37

Polaris

Sep 24, 2014 7:32:36

mellored wrote:

#38

Ashrym

Sep 25, 2014 0:28:42

Focus on the number of slots is the error people make. 2 slots means very little when you can silent image and false life at will at those lower levels, and all casters are either resorting to weapons or relying on cantrips.

When we're at 5th level and the warlock can cast two 3rd level slots as other spell casters. The slots cover the best level of spells at the same rate other casters get the same spells (ignoring any short rests). It's the lower level spells that the warlock is competing with in his or her other abilities. When I'm launching d10+4 twice at will and someone else has 3 scorching rays that do 2d6 each my at-will is almost identical (almost) to those scorching rays (19 vs 21) so those spells aren't doing squat in comparison, in my mind. When those most other casters cantrips don't have any option to add ability modifier damage and I'm adding it twice already and twice before the other casters who get can add it once. 2d10+8 beats 2d10+0 or 2d10+4 when we get there.

One short rest and the warlock's four 3rd level spells beat that wizard's three 3rd level spells and the sorc can trade all his points in without the short rest for a third 3rd level spell. Then the warlock's at will damage is still better than their lower level spell slots for damage. Their advantage is the warlock no longer has lower level spells available where the other classes do outside of damage and while the warlock can fit in 1 or 2 at-will first level spells the list is limited in functionality. Warlocks start good, taper off as other casters advance, and then start picking up the pace with better at will spells in the invocations, increased slots, and mystic arcanum around 9th level.

Getting back to my earlier comment, it's the large number of 5th level spell slots that come with several short rests that leads to warlocks being far superior to other casters because they can do a lot with all those 5th level slots. The only real comparison is between the additional lower level slots versus some nice at-will abilities at higher levels. Higher level abilities are not entirely dissimilar even with a more restricted spell list.

#39

Yunru

Sep 25, 2014 3:54:24

Actually you're discounting the fact that the other casters do get ways to add stat mods to damage rolls. More realistically it'd be: 2(1d10+4) [19] Vs 3(2d6+4) [33]

#40

mellored

Sep 25, 2014 6:37:54

Ashrym wrote:

(Reply to #38)

Tydanosaurus

Ashrym wrote:

(Reply to #40)

Ashrym

mellored wrote:

#43

Sword_of_Spirit

Sep 25, 2014 13:16:55

Question for those who believe that warlocks need AB per RAW just to barely keep up with other casters.

If they only got nerfed AB (applies only once per casting), how many short rests would you say they would need to stay competitive with other casters?

#44

kilpatds

Sep 25, 2014 14:43:58

Don't know if it could be done, until you allow for the possibility of taking a short rest in the middle of a combat?

(Edit: Also don't think a nerfed Warlock would fall that far outside of the range of other classes, given no short rests. We're not dealing with a particularly tight balance right now. And higher level casters are again really really good. And I'm also not convinced that the Warlock honestly keeps up with other casters with the non-nerfed EB invocations, no matter the frequency of short rests. Well, at a certain frequency, the out-of-combat utility might be higher. Might.)

#45

Mommy_was_an_Orc

Sep 25, 2014 16:42:59

The big issue is mechanically, the assumption is that a given day has about 2-3 short rests, yet DMG hasn't said so yet. And it isn't 100% clear that R&D agrees with their mechanics. Wizards get a huge boost from a short rest, Battlemaster Fighters are boring if they don't get a short rest, so 0-1 shouldn't be common numbers. That gets to 2-3, probably where one fights approximately 2-3 tough fights between a short rest.

But that's so much time out of a day that it begs the question of how the party might be achieving 2-3 hours of short rests in scenarios where it seems unlikely. Such as a dungeon or other area. I think if Warlock gets 2 rests per day, it serves a relatively solid caster role in addition to other options once it can expect Hex to last through a short rest. That's a big assumption, though.

#46

kilpatds

Sep 25, 2014 16:52:03

On trying to figure out the number of short rests, remember that the "no clerics" healing mechanic is, to a rough estimate: "you can heal to full 1/day, split into <level> chunks.". So there aren't enough HP in the party to survive 9 tough fights a day (w/o clerics or other dedicated healing resources, like a druid with a haversack full of healing berries)

(Edit: in fact there aren't enough HP to really survive 4 tough fights w/o a magic healing fountain. Clerics pressed into duty of "magic healing fountains" end up spending so many spell slots on that that they basically lose their casting feature until higher levels).

#47

FallingIcicle

Sep 25, 2014 17:02:02

Sword_of_Spirit wrote:

#48

Mommy_was_an_Orc

Sep 25, 2014 17:20:15

kilpatds wrote:

(Reply to #41)

Ashrym

Tydanosaurus wrote:

(Reply to #43)

Ashrym

Sword_of_Spirit wrote:

(Reply to #46)

Ashrym

kilpatds wrote: