Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 justiceleaguenow Nov 24, 2014 7:17:45	Had an interesting question pop up during our weekly session on Saturday.  We have a thief in our party who took the Assassin type at 3rd level.  During the session he attempted to use the "Assassinate" class feature in which he rolled a natural 20 on the dice.  The class feature says that the character only has to hit his target and if he does its considered a critical hit.  The argument then came about that he should get one additional dice dmg on top of the critical hit given by the class feature.  As DM I said no because it doesnt specify that in the text of the class feature like for instance it does in the Half-orc frenzy racial trait.  I know its a petty ruling on my part because a Natural 20 is special and exciting for the players, but the thief already has "sneak attack" dmg + the assassinate dmg so just wanted to make a balanced ruling.   Any thoughts on how this scenerio should play out but not based upon the the emotion of rolling a Natural 20?
#2 mellored Nov 24, 2014 7:21:25	Crit + Crit = Crit.   Though feel free to houserule it to rolling dice 3x.
#3 Noctaem Nov 24, 2014 7:29:35	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #2) justiceleaguenow	[quote="mellored"] Crit + Crit = Crit.   Though feel free to houserule it to rolling dice 3x. Yeah that was my take on it as well!  However, house ruling it would also not make me too uncomfortable but had a couple of the players (one was my older brother LOL) who just thought I was just in left field on my ruling....
(Reply to #4) Lord_Kadarian	I have to agree with the above posters,   I would also like to provide an additional possibility do you have players roll to confirm crits, (something from previous additions that some people may carry over)  If so then the nat 20 can be used to count as the confirmation roll auto succeeding, leading into a second d20 roll to see if you get triple damage.   If you are going with a nat 20 is a crit hands down then officially the rules would have it that there is no additional bonus, which is what ended up happening in my gaming group as well.    adding an additional die (ie great axe +1d12, or great sword +1d6 as my group has ruled it) is not too game breaking for a bonus crit although yes the sneak attack damage will certainly make it a powerful blow.
#6 AndyDay Nov 25, 2014 14:20:15	The rules are pretty clear that he already had a critical, so he doesn't get any more damage.   That said, critical hits are in the game to be exciting. Assassinate shouldn't be less exciting, it should be MORE exciting since it's hard to pull off. So I would make it do x3 damage.   I imagine once you house-rule this, you'll never see a critical on an assassinate again. Heh.
#7 guachi Nov 25, 2014 18:22:48	I'm trying to get the ranger, who is an archer with Stealth skill,  in my (very large) Adventurers League party to take one or more of the following - Pass Without a Trace spell (+10 Stealth to party), 1 level of Rogue for Expertise to use for Stealth, 3 levels of Rogue to become an Assassin. I am an Assassin. We Stealth together at ridiculous bonuses. Fun!   I don't think, however, I will be able to convince the DM that a 20 = 3 crits no matter how awesome that would. Can't hurt to ask though, right?
#8 BRJN Nov 25, 2014 19:02:25	Since the Assassin auto-crits, if he rolls a 20 on top of that, auto-max ALL those dice.  Then he still comes out with something cool for his die roll.  (And he can dream about someday taking down Orcus in one blow...)
(Reply to #2) SuspectProduct	mellored wrote:
#10 AaronOfBarbaria Dec 21, 2014 20:58:31	The way that a critical hit is defined doesn't really lend itself to "stacking".
#11 Macv12 Dec 21, 2014 21:33:12	Exactly. Critical is a yes/no proposition. Like advantage, you either roll it or you don't. They don't go into detail about crit stacking because it's generally impossible; this is the only time I can think of on the spot where two separate things could possibly get you a critical (even if you rolled double-crits with advantage, you still have to choose one of the dice). Still agree with other posters that you should get something special for such a rare event.
(Reply to #10) SuspectProduct	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#13 AaronOfBarbaria Dec 21, 2014 22:33:37	There is nothing which says critical hits can stack, which means they can't. Further, the critical hit section says "roll all of the attack's damage dice twice" which is distinctly different from "roll one more set of the attack's damage dice" which is the type of wording that would allow for additive critical hits
(Reply to #13) SuspectProduct	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#15 Noon Dec 23, 2014 20:28:59	There is no magic about a natural twenty that means it just hasta do something.   If there's a rule saying it adds something, cool.   Otherwise your players are just trying to act like they are the GM and get to decide what outside the rules stuff happens.   Tell them to suggest it could happen rather than tell you it happens - then you might do it.   When players tell you what outside the rules stuff will happen, say you'll always never do it.
#16 LupusRegalis Dec 23, 2014 22:39:16	While I can see the OP's point, I can also see his group's point as well.  It's the type of decision that ruins the mood of the game without real benefit to the game itself.    Rolling a nat 20 on an Assassinate opportunity is something exciting, and even if it's just through story-telling, it's the type of event that can really make the moment stand out, as well as the campaign itself.  If the target was someone unimportant to the campaign, then describe how the character deftly maneuvers into position before choosing the perfect moment to strike, slaying the target outright.  No need to force a confrontation with your players at all, destroying the flow of the session, as mechanics are unimportant at that point.     If it is an NPC of importance to the game, make a decision; Are you going to allow the chance to slay that NPC?  If Yes, then let the dice roll and deal with it.  If No, then you probably shouldn't have allowed the situation to play out this far, because now you have to pull some DM magic if the NPC has a chance of dying.   In any case, it's my opinion that while it's not necessary to reward simply through mechanically adding to the damage, it is important to maintain the flow of the session.  Any other character that rolled a Nat 20 would benefit from that, so why not a Rogue using Assassinate?  He should be penalized simply because he has an ability that mimics critcal hits?  Go with the excitement of the moment, take it and use it to draw your players further into the game.  Don't force the moment into rules lawyering at the expense of the game itself.
#17 Coredump00 Dec 24, 2014 4:28:16	You could give 'advantage' on the damage.  Roll 3 dice, keep the highest 2.  May get tricky with lots of dice...
#18 Hibiki54 Dec 28, 2014 1:28:38	I like the 3x dice recommendation and I also like the max dice recommendation.   Assassinate can only be pulled off in rare situations and so infrequently that a player should be rewarded for rolling a critical hit on an attack that generates a critical hit.   I would rule that the PC outright slays the target. I mean, he is trying to assassinate him.
#19 Ganymede425 Dec 28, 2014 8:18:33	SuspectProduct wrote:
#20 Avross Dec 28, 2014 14:13:32	As has been pointed out, there isn't a rule which clearly states this one way or another, they do discuss similar ideas when it comes to other rules:   Proficiencies, Basic rules, p7 wrote:
(Reply to #19) SuspectProduct	Ganymede425 wrote:
(Reply to #20) SuspectProduct	Avross wrote:
(Reply to #21) Ganymede425	SuspectProduct wrote:
(Reply to #23) SuspectProduct	Ganymede425 wrote:
#25 Ganymede425 Dec 28, 2014 21:49:24	Don't forget the potential fourth source if the champion takes a three-level dip in rogue.
#26 BRJN Dec 30, 2014 14:09:53	Ganymede425 wrote:
#27 DungeonKrusher Dec 30, 2014 13:31:37	This sounds like one of those instances where the rules lean towards the attack "just" being a critical -- no added bonus -- but the spirit of a group of buddies playing a game should be "Awesome! Rolled a 20! Reward ensues!"   Basically: it's anti-rule but pro-fun to throw an extra damage die in there -- or allow the character to outright succeed in the assassination.
#28 Ganymede425 Dec 30, 2014 13:33:16	You could rule that the target explodes and that the assassin walks away from the explosion in slow motion.
#29 Avross Dec 30, 2014 15:44:28	Ganymede425 wrote:
#30 bonethug0108 Dec 31, 2014 5:07:04	I'll throw my hat in stating that a fair resolution allows something more while not being overpowering. 3x dice and max dice can be overpowering (3x dice at higher levels with sneak attack and max dice at lower levels but much less overpowering; if choosing one of these go max dice). The easiest solution is to add one weapon damage die after rolling the normal and crit dice (effectively working like Savage Attacks). All that said, it's only a 5% chance this happens whenever Assassinate is used so none of these break the game.
#31 Oraibi Dec 31, 2014 23:19:43	Actually, since it says to roll double the number of dice, wouldn't a double crit give x4 instead of x3?   Like if we had 20d6 dice, get a crit, double that to 40d6. And then double that to 80d6 for a double crit.   I'm not saying that's what I'd rule, but I think it actually is more easily supported by RAW than x3.
#32 Horwath Jan 01, 2015 10:47:04	Ganymede425 wrote:
#33 Yunru Jan 02, 2015 9:02:37	One thing that is very rare but no-one's mentioned: If the attack would never have hit, the attack is instead a normal hit on a roll of a 20. Thus if rolling a 20 would normally miss and you've Assasssinate, the hit is a normal hit which is therefore a critical because of Assassinate.
(Reply to #33) OoftaMeg	Yunru wrote:
#35 Yunru Jan 02, 2015 11:10:01	Huh, so it does. My bad.