I'm going to be running the first session of the Lost Mine of Phandelver tonight and I have a question about Stealth, Heavily Obscured areas and Attacks related to the first encounter. Note that I and my group started playing with 4e so we are very focussed on maps and miniatures and, I suspect, we will continue to be when playing 5e.
Let's start this thought experiment with a goblin hiding in brush that is a heavily obscured area and a PC, who has not detected the goblin through passive Perception, standing nearby:
The goblin is ready to attack but he's in a heavily obscured area. Page 65 of the Basic Rules states that "A creature in a heavily obscured area effectively suffers from the blinded condition". So, when considered what happens to the Goblin's attack roll, I think I need to take the following two rules into consideration:
- Page 105, Blinded Condition, "...the creature's attack rolls have disadvantage."
- Page 73, Unseen Attackers and Targets, "When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it."
Therefore, does this mean that the goblin has advantage from being an unseen attacker and disadvantage from being blind which results in a normal attack roll? My gut feeling is that the goblin should have advantage, seeing as he's attacking someone out in the open while hidden but I'm interested in other RAW opinions.
Thanks.
If the goblin is really attacking from the middle of the bush, then rules as written the goblin would not be able to see the player. The advantage and disadvantage from each of them being unable to see the other would cancel each other out, yes.
If the player were distracted for some reason, then the DM could choose to rule that the goblin despite coming out of hiding can make an attack with advantage (Basic p. 60).
Edit: Also note that if combat has not yet started, the player would be surprised, and the goblin could act on its first turn while the player could not. While not related to attacking with advantage, it would mean that being hidden benefits the goblin.
Edit 2: A wood elf hiding in a bush could probably have gotten close enough to the edge of the bush to be only lightly obscured, and therefore be able to attack with advantage without a distraction. Fifth edition gives some very nice bonuses to elves.
Overpromises wrote:
Well, for an interpretation so strict that the obscurement from the bush is binary, everything I said about the goblin would still all be true, while a wood elf would have needed to find a different, lightly obscuring bush.
Heavily obscurred terrain blocks sight completely, therefor the playes could hide from the goblins, even though they are in the open.
I would say that the foliage would probably be lightly obscurred the closer you get to the edge, otherwise it would be a poor choice for an ambush spot by the goblins. They can fire, retreat back into the brush, hide, then sneak back to a different square for their next attack.
kanageddaamen wrote:
Neutrilino wrote:
kanageddaamen wrote:
Have to say, I would not normally rule that bushes provide heavy obscurment. In the adventure, it says they are difficult terrain and provide cover. I'd have said bushes granting heavy obscure would be basically impassable.
Neutrilino wrote:
I think you're thinking too much about squares, OP.
Goblins are in the bushes. The bushes provide cover. If the goblins lie down or whatever they can get full cover, which allows them to attempt to hide. When they pop up to shoot, they have normal cover again, they are no longer hiding and are automatically spotted, but they get adv on their attack roll because they were attacking from hiding (I think?), and they have a chance to surprise the PCs.
Never in my life have I met with a bush that would not allow light to filter through. Not in any country I've visited.
And any night-hunter can tell you that even in the dead of the darkest night, there is a bit of visibility that you can see shapes with - dark shapes moving against the lightly colored grass (yay hogs!)
Have I been in the terrible darkness of a night without any light? Absolutely. But they're rare, even in the desert.
As for the bush? My adjudication on the issue was that the goblins were able to hide and pop out to surprise the characters. The heavily obscured environment makes the process easier for guaranteeing the characters' surprise because... it is materially impossible for them to see the goblins. By the same token, the rules declare that the goblins cannot see the characters, but they can hear them.
What did I do?
Surprise Round: Archer Goblins jump out and fire shots, then jump back in the bushes. The melee goblins then launch their attack and act as "distractions" on the characters. Anyone who has been in a firefight can tell you that unless you're trying really hard to keep tabs on enemies you cannot see, you focus on what you can see. The rules make the open ended declaration that you can see things that step out of hiding unless you're distracted (once again leaving it up to the DM). A goblin could theoretically go to the other side of the party and make all the distraction they needed for a hidden shot.
I have the same situation with the party's rogue. She comes to a door and constantly wants to duck behind cover to hide with her cunning action, then step around to fire with the hidden condition. Logic dictates that if I'm covering a door with my bow... I'm going to see you when you come around no matter how "sneaky" you are (provided light, etc.) But what we're talking about here isn't being able to react to being fired upon... it's about being able to react when fired upon. I do not know when that rogue is going to pop around and that is the aspect of her hide check that is a little "surprise." Now, getting hidden and slinking over to the other window to shoot in? Way more plausible. Altogether, an observed location is an observed location. You cannot hide in it. You might be able to move to another unobserved location...
...like the rest of the bushes.
ivstin wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
kanageddaamen wrote:
ivstin wrote:
kanageddaamen wrote: