Attacking from hidden with a ranged weapon is clear, you get advantage and possible surprise round if the thenemy is unaware. But:
-Can someone attack from hidden status by moving out, closing the enemy for melee attack? would he lose hidden status (thus advantage on attack rolls) as soon as leaves cover or would he keep it till the end of he/his turn. If he cannot stay hidden then it means that ranged weapons, even throwing daggers have big advantage over melee weapons (provided there are suitable hiding places). And i mean not just the surprise round but hiding mid-combat then attacking from hidden.
Bonus question:
Can someone ready action outside of combat? (or enter into combat status without trading blows?) For example someone about 50% sure that an other is sneaking around in a room behind crates. Can he ready his bow to shoot as soon as someone jumps on him?
What if he is 100% sure that someone else in the room somewhere? what if he has no idea, just want to be on the safe side always? Would the stealthy one get a surprise round no matter what?
THX
You can attack hidden from melee range if and only if the target is sufficiently distracted.
See rules on hiding (basic rules p.60):
However, under certain circumstances, the Dungeon Master might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack before you are seen.
Yes, melee attackers can attack while hidden and gain advantage. There's multiple ways of doing this: Darkness, Invisibility, cover, etc...
The rules say that while in combat, a creature can leave a hiding spot and approach another creature and remain hidden as long as the creature is considered distracted by the DM as Rya quoted. However he's not correct about the part where if you have a bow and someone gets into melee range, you can simply drop your bow as a free action and then draw your melee weapon as you make your attack. There's no need at all to use a full action like he claims.
The official ruling for the actions listed under combat is that they are intended to be used in combat, however as a DM there's no reason why you need to keep it that way. Personally I don't think it makes much sense to limit the actions that a player can take in or out of combat the way this does. At my table you can absolutely ready and action outside of combat. So for your example, yes the archer would be able to ready an action to fire an arrow at someone who attacked him, however if that someone is in melee range when the readied action is triggered, the archer would have disadvantage for his readied action attack. This is of course, if combat hasn't already started. The thing about rolling initiative and surprise is that they revolve around becoming aware of a threat. So if you know that someone is sneaking around and they pose a threat, the DM should roll initiative at that point. However if you're in a room and you don't notice the threat the sneaking creature represents, imo initiative should only be rolled once the archer becomes aware of the threat.
Finally, as for Surprise, the only way to gain surprise is for combat to begin with a creature not being aware of you. This is also why I personally resolve the act that started combat before rolling initiative. So for example, the Archer in unaware of the hiding rogue in the room. The rogue attacks the archer from his hiding spot. At this point I resolve the attack of the rogue, then have everyone involved roll initiative and go from there with the Archer being considered surprised until the end of his first turn because he failed to notice the threat that the rogue represented until it was too late. After his first turn, the Archer can take a reaction as normal. Some people like Rya prefer to roll initiative as soon as there's the possibility of something starting combat. I don't like that method and the rules don't specifically say which way you're supposed to go, they just say that noticing a threat is imperative to surprise and how/when combat starts.
The only way to make yourself immune to surprise is to take the Alert feat. The only time you can be surprised is at the start of combat, if you're already in combat you can't be surprised.
However he's not correct about the part where if you have a bow and someone gets into melee range, you can simply drop your bow as a free action and then draw your melee weapon as you make your attack. There's no need at all to use a full action like he claims.
Rya.Reisender wrote:
You wouldn't even need to drop it. You only need two hands to use a bow. It's easy enough to simply release with one hand and yank out your sword or rapier or dagger. Legolas did it all the time, and you would still have your move. Then resheath and set your bow again, also without losing action or move.
Noctaem wrote:
Rya.Reisender wrote:
What makes you think that dropping an object is not an object interaction?
The same reason why letting go of a bow to have a hand free is not an object interaction. Letting go of something you're holding is not an object interaction of 5e.
To be fair to Rya, it's not specified in the rules that dropping is a free action. Nor is it specified that going from wielding to holding (in the case of 2 handed weapons) is free or an object interaction. So one could, if they wish, interpret both of those things as object interactions.
Rya.Reisender wrote:
I'd bet if I went to an English teacher and asked him if the sentence "I drop the stone I'm holding" is an object interaction he would say "Yes". So it's an object interaction for me UNLESS there is a Sage Advice where it was clarified that it's not.
Another indication for me that this is true is that at least "sheathing your weapon" is clearly listed as one of the actions that are considered an object interaction, which I find very similar to dropping gameplay-wise. At the very least you can conclude from the rules that whoever wrote them didn't want players to be able to sheathe a weapon and draw a new one in one round without using an action.
Rya.Reisender wrote:
The PHB does not say that dropping an item is a free action, so the english teacher wouldn't say anything that's in conflict with it.
From twitter:
Q: what are the rules on dropping weapons? People are dropping weapons to circumvent only having one 'Interaction with Object'
@jaelis
Thanks!
matezzo wrote:
I allow actions out of combat, but they also preclude you from taking other actions. Dash is a common action outside of combat, to move quickly. Hiding is too. So is Perception. If your lead in the marching order wants to walk around with an arrow drawn on their bow, or a cocked crossbow, then they aren't going to be stealthy (unless they're a rogue) or fast (unless they're a rogue) or perceptive.
For moving out-of-combat I use the traveling rules instead. They include handling of moving stealthily and how perception works out-of-combat. The time units usually are much larger out-of-combat.
jaelis wrote:
Not sure why there couldn't be a readied action outside of combat as long as the triggers are appropriately described. I have encountered (in many different systems) the party approaching a door and the archer/ranged people all line up and ready to fire if there is anything hostile in the room after the fighter yanks open the door. It's no different than a SWAT team going in hot, whether or not they know someone is in the room.
How this affects initiative could vary, but I've usually seen DMs trigger the ready and then roll.
Kahless wrote:
Just saying how I've seen it done. The purpose of a readied action is to sort of choose when to go, breaking initiative. And sure, the monsters could do that, too, if they heard. And if the archers get to go twice because of good initiative and surprise/tactics, then that should be fine. Why should the players be punished for good, sound tactics? SWAT teams don't go "Wait, we have to let the bad guys shoot us first before we can go again!"
If you give players such a huge advantage, it will just cause them to do it all the time. Whenever you walk around any corner or open any door they will ready their actions. That kind of ruins the game flow. You should start combat whenever the order of who acts when matters.
That it's impossible to use the ready action outside combat does not mean that the players can't tell you what their characters want to do ahead of time. A player can tell me "My character walks carefully over the bridge, but if it starts to collapse, he'll jump back" and that's fine. But I won't consider it as a ready action. It doesn't expire after 6 seconds for example. It's just an action the character wants to do and he clarified it a bit better so it's easier for me to play out without asking again.
However for surprising an enemy, there are the surprise rules. If you allow players to circumvent them, they will always do it and spam you with "If I see an enemy I'll attack him before he can see me" sentences and expect to get the first hit just by saying so.
jaelis wrote:
Rya.Reisender wrote:
I'd rather play by the rules I purchased. I'm not a fan of houseruling.
And easier isn't always equal to more fun.
When I play a beat 'em up with my friend and my skills exceed his, I certainly could just let him win. But it's much cooler if he puts in the effort and manages to beat me without me letting him win.
If I play a coop board game, yeah most of those are usually hard as hell and you only win like every 20th attempt. One could add houserules that makes it easier, so we win half of the time, but does it make it more fun? We want to win it according to the official rules.
Noctaem wrote:
jaelis wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
jaelis wrote:
The rules are not in place to dictate what can and can not be done. They're there to be used as a tool to adjudicate the game. Nothing more. Yes, it's a game and thus requires structure, but it's not binary in the least bit. We're human beings and the game needs that element to function.
So when someone says, "I want to do a thing" I have to think, "what do the rules say and do they make sense in this particular situation, and if not, how can I adjudicate to best fulfill the goals of play (have fun and tell a good story)?" It's not, "well, the rules say this thing can only be done in combat, so... no."
I love the rules as much as the next guy and believe they're an integral part of the system. I don't believe that they're the be-all end-all of it, however.
Noctaem wrote:
jaelis wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
jaelis wrote:
Are you suggesting there are situations where the PCs have (and benefit from) surprise, but would not be able to ready actions? That didn't seem likely to me, but maybe I'm missing part of your point, I'd be happy to understand better.
Noctaem wrote:
Kahless wrote:
In the situation where the party knows an enemy is on the other side of the door and that they have a very good chance that they have not been detected, I allow the party to set their initiative order - sort of a readied action. It makes no sense to me, and is very annoying as a player, to have a whole plan set out ("cleric opens door, archers fire, wizard ranged spells, fighters barge in, rogue gets the SA...") and then the initiative order has the fighters first, then the rogue, then the wizard etc. Yes, the first thing that goes to hell in a battle is the plan, but I have found that it works very well this way.
I do not, however, have the party attack twice before a response from the NPCs - if the party goes first and can set its initiative order, the rest of the turn is for the NPCs to respond in their initiative order, which I set lower than the PCs'.
And, if they were wrong and the NPCs had detected the party, then I would ask for normal initiative rolls and the plan might just go to hell.
This is all house ruling, of course, but it has worked well for my game without causing extreme situations.
I have a question. But first I would like to clarify some things (that I am not sure if I have correctly interpreted or not).
1. A readied action uses your reaction (which you only get once a round) and is taken outside of initiative order.
2. A surprise is determined by comparing Dex (Stealth) with passive Wis (Perc). If surprised, they can take no actions on their initiatives and get no reactions in the first round of combat.
SO, assuming those are true.... here are my follow up questions.
1. It is possible for (using the surprise rules) a person to attack twice before the opponent gets to go, so I don't really understand the arguement (since in both scenarios stated above, the PCs could go twice)....could someone explain what the issue actually is? (is one of you saying the PCs could potentially attack 3 times before bad guys go?)
2. Does combat start when initiative is called for?
3. Can combat start outside of initiative?
4. Can initiative start outside of combat?
Rya.Reisender wrote:
Rya.Reisender wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
Um, but there's nothing specific that would prevent you to move during your turn while using the ready action?
Also you said Hide and Attack can also be used out of combat, I don't allow these either. The hide action gets replaced by the "Moving stealthily", "Marching order" and "Splitting the party" rules. Attack simply doesn't work or rather I replace it with "Initiate Combat". So if a player says he wants his fighter to attack the goblin standing in front of him, then I won't execute that action but instead:
1. Determine surprise (--> no surprise the goblin is standing right in front of him and can see him)
2. Establish position (--> Fighter next to goblin, the rest of the group a bit behind the fighter, three goblins hiding behind some crates in the same room)
3. Roll initiative (--> 5, 12, 6, 20, 18, 15 check! The one who rolled 20 goes first.)
Only when it's the fighter's turn he can then attack the goblin if he still wants to do that.
Not sure about helping, it could be that it's intended to only be possible during combat where time matters significantly. Without a clarification by WotC this would just be us assuming if it can be used outside combat or not. I don't feel it's relevant because it would be identical to two players doing the same action.
Spellcasting... well that's possible, but there's a separate section for that. I see it so that you don't use a "Cast a spell" action outside combat, but rather just cast a spell as described in the spellcasting section with the costs described in the spell description.
Orethalion wrote:
Rya.Reisender wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
How do you move and wait at the same time?
Rya.Reisender wrote:
I really do feel these are pertinent questions and since no one has adressed them I shall repost.
1. Does combat start when initiative is called for?
2. Can combat start outside of initiative?
3a. Can initiative start outside of combat?
3b. Can players call for initiative before combat begins?
Look, the reason I feel these questions are important is because if you go on the premise that players can call for an initiative order (outside of combat) then the rest of the discussion is moot.
I have always looked at any turn based RPG as ALWAYS being in an initiative count. We just ignore it for a while because it is inconvenient to use it for things like traveling across town. BUT IF you play the game on the premise that the entire DnD world operates in initiatives, then the discusion about what actions you can take in or out of combat doesn't matter, because the world (not just combat) operates using initiative.
I have to say Orethalion... your argument for readying and not being able to do anything else after, like moving, is incredibly weak.
What does a player stating what they want to do have anything to do with "combat" or not? If my player wants to stab an unsupervised baby, do I really need them to roll initiative? The combat rules are in place to facilitate the story in an orderly fashion. They're a tool, just like any of the other rules. To be used when they makes sense and not when they don't. That's the DM's main job and pretty much the only reason why the players need them!
MrDiceGuy wrote:
I have always looked at any turn based RPG as ALWAYS being in an initiative count. We just ignore it for a while because it is inconvenient to use it for things like traveling across town. BUT IF you play the game on the premise that the entire DnD world operates in initiatives, then the discusion about what actions you can take in or out of combat doesn't matter, because the world (not just combat) operates using initiative.
So my next question is in your SWAT team door storm (a common tactic at my table) wouldn't you already be in initiative? Because "the specific order and not overlapping" seems kind of important (Answer 3) and therefore wouldn't you also be in combat (also in your answer 3)?
MrDiceGuy wrote:
MrDiceGuy wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
That would be correct. 
Noctaem wrote:
And not just spell casters, what about the goblin who hears the PCs in battle in the room just down the hallway? (I assume you come out of combat initiatives when the enemies in that room are dead) How long does the goblin have to warn his buddies? How long do they have to set up defenses? Do they have time to set traps?
MrDiceGuy wrote:
MrDiceGuy wrote:
Fair enough.
How do you handle a mid combat surprises? You seem to say they don't occur? I suppose RAW they cannot. But personally (setting aside RAW) how do you (Noctaem) RAI run mid combat surprises?
(Maybe this is a question for a different thread as it is no longer a rules question and mostly me just wondering how you personally handle something)
And thank you for the ETV explanation!
BTW, you might think keeping initiative while in a dungeon would be tedious, clunky, or slow down the game because thats what I thought when I first heard he was doing it. But to the contrary it actually made you keenly aware of what you were doing, how long you were taking, and made you think (as your characters probably did in a dungeon) that danger was lurking around every corner. I never felt it pidgeon holed us, because we could just "delay" if we needed to change the order of initiative, or more often, the person who was going later just waited for his next initiative to act, because once initiative is going, it very much works like a circular clock, is 6am after or before 6pm? Depends on if it is 1 pm or 1 am, but because it is a cycle either one can occur before or after the other (if that makes sense)
MrDiceGuy wrote:
MrDiceGuy wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
I think allowing combat actions outside of combat causes other issues. A guard constantly readying to attack the first enemy they see contradicts the surprise round mechanic. A rogue could sprint for hours on end contradicting the rules for travel outside of combat.
There are probably others but those are the ones that come to mind. We have the game construct of action, move and bonus action to handle a very specific situation (combat) that doesn't apply to other situations.
I do find it funny that orethalion is saying in another thread that an attack is part of the casting because it's under the spell section. Yet when it comes to combat actions, they aren't limited to combat. If you're going to say that the category something falls under matters (personally, I do) then be consistent about it.
OoftaMeg wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
How did "the most common actions you can take are described in the “Actions in Combat” section later in this chapter" turn into "you can only do these actions in combat and that's it"?
Combat is not some separate game that only exists when combat exists. The rules of the game remain the same. Initiative and the turn/round are introduced for organization and scope. Is combat the absolute only place you can slow down and organize a particular scene? No. Do you need both initiative and the turn/round to run a good combat scene? No.
I don't see what the fuss is about. The DM describes what's going on, a player says what they want to do, then the DM says what happens. Rinse and repeat to infinity. What's the problem?
Looking back, I was not clear so let me clarify.
If you allow readying outside of combat, when combat starts if neither side is surprised (neither side is being stealthy or both failed their stealth check) then the group that has readied actions gets a "free" attack or other readied action at the beginning of combat.
If they both have readied actions, it gets really, really confusing.
The surprise mechanic is supposed to handle the scenario where one side comes upon another group and gets the jump on them, not readied actions. Because, like I said, there is no reason you wouldn't just always have actions readied which is silly.
There is no reason for a group to not have actions readied to attack the next enemy they see if they are in potentially hostile territory.
It also messes wth travel speed. A rogue can dash as a bonus action, effectively moving 50% faster than a creature wth the same movement speed. That's ok in combat, not so much outside of combat.
OoftaMeg wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
Danny_Montanny wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
MrHotter wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Danny_Montanny wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
I disagree, you can certainly move after taking the Ready action. There's not much else you can do, but that does not make sense that you are forced to be immobile. The Ready action is what costs the action for your turn, but the reaction granted from taking the Ready action does not. When you take a reaction you can't take another one until the start of your next turn. You have until the start of your next turn to use a readied action.
Coolossus2123 wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
jaelis wrote:
Leugren wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
MrHotter wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
MrDiceGuy wrote:
Danny_Montanny wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
What you're describing obviously works for you. But it's not readying an action as described in the book, nor is it readying an action as described by the OP.
OoftaMeg wrote:
I don't see the need to ready an action outside combat. I give my players the chance to react outside combat whenever the situation changes. Like for example if a door opens I'd say "You can see that the door at the end of the passage slowly opens, what do you do?"
They don't need to tell me prior "When the door opens I want to do X". That just makes the story flow bad.
Rya.Reisender wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Rya.Reisender wrote:
Rya.Reisender wrote: