| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| #1philosofoolSep 22, 2014 21:22:46 | The rule says "you can roll one additional weapon damage die when determining the extra damage for a critical hit with a melee attack."
In the case of greatswords and mauls, does this really mean that you get smaller bonus dice than you would from a d8 or d10 weapon? Or is this about weapons that deal bonus damage, such as flaming swords?
If the former is really the right answer, does it seem weird to anyone else that a longsword in two hands does an average of 2.5 more damage than a greatsword on a critical hit?
From a balance perspective, I can't see any reason to treat the greatsword base damage (2d6) as the extra amount rolled for each step of brutal critical, since this is only very slightly more than a great axe (1d12).
|
| #22ChlorobutanalSep 22, 2014 22:30:15 | It means that the bonus you get from the "Brutal Critical" class feature is indeed smaller for mauls and greatswords than many other weapons. A versatile longsword would do 3d10 (16.5) with Brutal Critlcal (1), which is still less damage than a greatsword's 5d6 (17.5).
Eventually, a greataxe or even a two-handed longsword will outstrip a graetsword's critical damage with Brutal Critical (2, 3) and/or the Half-Orc racial feature, but the non-critical damage still favors the greatsword. Non-critical damage is weighted much more heavily than critical damage if you average all the damage, but this reinforces a divide between greatswords (or mauls) and greataxes:
Greataxe damage is more "evenly" distributed, having equal chances for very high or low damage. This is exaggerated by Brutal Critical greatly increasing the "spike" damage of critical hits.
Greatsword (or maul) damage is more "centrally" distributed, centering around 7 damage per roll and rarely doing the minimum or maximum. This is overall more damage than a greataxe or greatsword, and its critical hits are slightly smaller to emphasis consistent damage over "spike" damage.
Thematically, this means that high level Fighters will favor a greatsword for consistent damage (as well as more effect from Great Weapon Fighting style) and high level Barbarians will favor a Greataxe for the (slightly higher) average damage and great spike damage potential. However, both greatsword and greataxe expected damage work out to be very similar for most Barbarians. |
| #3Moot_DundleSep 23, 2014 18:24:00 |
|
| #4SorxoresSep 23, 2014 5:07:37 | Here I go the math to compare the damage of a greatsword to a great axe:
without any feats/racial: Greatsword miss do 0 damage. Regular hit do on average 7 damage, On a critical damage it does 14 Greataxe miss do 0 damage, REgular hit do on average 6.5damage, On a critical damage it does 13
If assuming a 80% to hit the target.
Greatsword: 20%(0)+75%(7)+5%(14)=5.95 Greataxe: 20%(0)+75%(6.5)+5%(13)=5.525
So without any feat Greatsword is the best weapon on average
Now with brutal crit (from half orc or from barbarian) Greatsword crit: 17.5 GreatAxe crit: 19.5
Greatsword: 20%(0)+75%(7)+5%(17.5)=6.125 Greataxe: 20%(0)+75%(6.5)+5%(19.5)=5.85
Even with 1 brutal attack greatsword is still, on average better then the great axe
Now with greatweapon fighting and brutal crit GreatSword Regular hit do on average 7.888888888888 on a crit it does on average 19,72222222222 Great axe regular hit do on average 7.333333333 on a crit it does on average 21.9999999999
Greatsword: 20%(0)+75%(7.8888888888)+5%(19.7222222222)=6.902 Greataxe: 20%(0)+75%(7.3333333333)+5%(21.99999999999)=6.5999999999999
GreatSwrod win again
Now let see with 3 level of champion giving you 10% chance to crit (crit on 19-20)
Greatsword: 20%(0)+70%(7.8888888888)+10%(19.7222222222)=7.49444 Greataxe: 20%(0)+70%(7.3333333333)+10%(21.99999999999)=7.33333333
Greatsword is still slightly better then the greataxe.
Now let's go with 15 level in champion (crit on 18-19-20 so 15%)
Greatsword: 20%(0)+65%(7.8888888888)+15%(19.7222222222)=8.0861 Greataxe: 20%(0)+65%(7.3333333333)+15%(21.99999999999)=8.0666666
So again Greatsword is slightly better.
For sure, if you chance your miss chance or if you gain advantage or with aditional brutal critical, those ratio will chance, but you can still see the greatsword is superiror to the greataxe, even when you try to build crit oriented. So I won't be crying because the increase of damage on a greatsword is not as big as on other weapon since the Greatsword stay the BEST weapon unless you put your entire build into critical damage.
Then even if you look in the past (3.5) a greatsword was criting 19-20 for double damage, while the greataxe was criting on a 20 for triple damage (without any feat or special abilities) |
| #5ClutchboneSep 23, 2014 14:09:42 | Whoa, just so I'm clear here: Greatswords only roll +1d6 on a Brutal Crit or Savage Attack? |
| #6Moot_DundleSep 23, 2014 18:28:17 |
|
| #7LongTimeLurkerSep 24, 2014 22:34:44 |
|
| #8obsidSep 25, 2014 10:07:08 | Giving the greataxe its due, lets say your a lvl17 half-orc barbarian using reckless attack and frenzy.
Greatsword Normal Damage=12 (2d6+5) Greataxe Normal Damage= 11.5 (1d12+5)
Greatsword Crit Damage=33 (8d6+5) Greataxe Crit Damage=44 (6d12+5)
A single attack with 80% chance to hit (which with advantage means 4% chance of miss 9.75% chance of crit 86.25% chance of hit): Greatsword: 4%(0)+86.25%(12)+9.75%(33)=13.5675 Greataxe: 4%(0)+86.25%(11.5)+9.75%(44)=14.20875
Without reckless attack its Greatsword 11.25 and Greataxe 11.4 (still better for the greataxe but not by much).
With 3 attacks per turn that means the total damage is Greatsword = 40.7025 Greataxe = 42.62625 Greataxe is 4.73% better then the greatsword.
But, greataxe becomes MUCH better as the chance to hit decreases, for instance redoing the math with a 30% chance of hit (with adv. still a 9.75% chance to crit, but 49% chance to miss, 41.25% chance to hit) Greatsword: 49%(0)+41.25%(12)+9.75%(33)=8.1675 Greataxe: 49%(0)+41.25%(11.5)+9.75%(44)=9.03375
With 3 attacks per turn thats Greatsword: 24.5025 Greataxe: 27.10125 Greataxe 10.6% better then the greatsword. ---------------------------------------------------- Now lets do it with a lvl 15 half-orc champion fighter, same normal damage. Greatsword Crit Damage=22.5 (5d6+5)
With Suprior Critical thats a 15% chance of crit. Greatsword: 20%(0)+65%(12)+15%(22.5)=11.175
In other words, dont use a great axe with a fighter unless you can get consistant advantage or have lower then an 80% chance of hit, with advantage its 4% chance of miss, 27.75% chance of crit, 68.25% chance of hit
with 3 attacks per round with advantage thats Greataxe is 1.48% better with advantage and 80% chance to hit.
With 30% chance to hit and no advantage. Greatsword: 70%(0)+15%(12)+15%(22.5)=5.175
with 3 attacks per round without advantage thats Greataxe is 4.35% better then Greatsword even without advantage and a 30% chance to hit.
TLDR: If you are a high level barbarian half-orc use a great axe. If your DM is using lots of HIGH AC monsters (maybe to make it more of a challenge for your group), and you are a half-orc champion fighter then think about using a greataxe.
One other thing to note, if you are using the "power attack" of the Great Weapon Master feat, you have effectivly given the monster +5 AC, so when using that feat in that way great axes become much better compared to greatswords.
|
| #9IllithidbixSep 25, 2014 10:33:44 | I'm kinda cool with this, I prefer that greataxes are the weapons of choice for Barbarians.
If a player really wants to be a Greatsword wielding barbarian, I'd personally have zero problem with him using a 1D12 instead of 2D6 for damage. On average it's less damage (6.5 vs 7). Otherwise the only difference is It's more expensive (50gp vs 30gp) and 1lb lighter
I vaguely prefered the design at one point during the playtest where ever weapon only had a single dice of damage. |
| #102ChlorobutanalSep 25, 2014 17:56:28 | If you're comparing the weapons for a Fighter, keep in mind that Great Weapon Fighting style skews things further in favor of the greatsword.
At high Barbarian levels (lots of bonus critical dice), great axe can average better than the sword, but at lower levels or with Great Weapon Fighting style, greatsword is equivalent or better than the axe.
That being said, the difference is generally pretty small, so I wouldn't mind using either one. |
| #11OmegastrikeNov 20, 2014 11:40:42 | If you read the Brutal Critical it says you can add one extra weapon die when determining the extra damage and When you score a critical hit, you get to roll extra dice for the attack’s damage against the target. Roll all of the attack’s damage dice twice and add them together. Then add any relevant modifiers as normal. To speed up play, you can roll all the damage dice at once. If the attack involves other damage dice, such as from a class feature, you roll those dice twice as well. |
| (Reply to #11)Lord_Kadarian |
|
| #13guachiNov 25, 2014 18:13:08 | Be a Champion, attack with advantage somehow, turn that 15% crit chance into a 28% chance. Fun and profit! |
| #14Trance-ZgNov 26, 2014 7:51:05 | All this comes down to:
Greataxe exist because of halforc barbarian and halforc barbarian exist because of greataxe.
not the best game design IMO.
|
| #15melloredNov 26, 2014 8:16:03 |
|
| #16curiousdragonApr 21, 2015 19:45:17 | (Sorry for the thread necro....)
While I agree with the common interpretation in this thread, I'm wondering if the other interpretation is possible:
Is it completely unreasonable to interpret the additional die as part of the damage BEFORE doubling the attack's damage dice? In a sense you are determining the extra damage from the critical hit by doubling the damage dice, however you are permitted to add an additional die beforehand. The key word is "when" -- which really can mean before, after or during (i.e., I'm about to determine my extra damage, but when I do it, I can add one additional weapon damage...but it is not clear as to what -- base or crit damage?)
As a DM/Player I would never use this alternative interpretation, but there are others that have this point of view, and I'd like to play devil's advocate... |
| #17FrogReaverApr 21, 2015 21:47:40 | The book specifies that weapons can roll multiple damage dice. This savage Critical feature only have you roll one additional damage die. So yes you only roll one of the die for weapons that roll multiple damage die.
Curiousdragon, you did find one explanation that would allow that an extra 2d6 to be rolled however it would also allow an extra 2d12 rolled for a greataxe. While possible it doesn't really make greatswords and greataxes equal in that regard. |
| #18curiousdragonApr 22, 2015 1:10:01 |
|
| #19DaomSlayerApr 22, 2015 9:54:01 |
|
| #20Rya.ReisenderApr 23, 2015 5:35:38 | It's only really relevant if you are min-maxing. You might as well use a Greataxe because you think it fits better to your character. Hundreds of reasons to use a weapon not doing the maximum damage. You might even give yourself a flaw that you can't use sword-type weapons.
The mace is much more underpowered compared to the quarterstaff than the greataxe is compared to the greatsword. But still you might just prefer using it as cleric.
But if you insist, the easiest way to rebalancing 2d6 vs 1d12 is to redefine the normal critical to "Roll one additional damage die" as well. This does not only solve the problem "When should I double the die?", but also balances the weapons perfectly, the greatsword being better for normal attacks but has fairly bad critical damage and the greataxe having slightly lower normal attack, but significantly higher critical damage.
Bonus info: More average damage does not necessarily mean better. Sometimes it might be better to do a high damage critical and sometimes it might be better to do reliable damage. 2d6 and 1d12 does not only differ in 0.5 more average damage, but also for example that in 2d6 a 7 is most likely. A 12 with 2d6 is less likely than a 12 with 1d12.
So for example if you attack a target with 12 HP (assuming no damage modifiers), using a great axe is effectively better even without crit.
With crit it can make the difference between having a small chance to instantly kill a target and no chance at all. Killing is always better than damaging, so this might actually be quite relevant.
tldr: I think Greatsword and Greataxe are well balanced. I would neither allow a Greatsword user to roll two extra dice if the rule says one dice, nor do I see the need to buff Greataxe just because its normal average damage is lower than the one of the Greatsword, since it's still better in certain situations. |
| #21Tempest_StormwindApr 23, 2015 9:37:32 |
|
| #22UngeheuerLichJul 21, 2015 14:25:19 | Great post. |
| #23Greenstone.WalkerJul 21, 2015 16:15:53 | Greatswords (and other 2d* weapons) are more likely to do average damage (the probabilites of large damage and of small damage are lower than that of middling damage). They are all about consistent performance.
Greataxes (and other 1d* weapons) are more variable. They are all about the big hits but have more chance of grazing hits than swords.
The rules as written mean that barbarians are more likely to have big axes than swords, which fits how they are often portrayed in art. The game is encouraging the trope. |
| #24PrimarchxJul 23, 2015 6:04:08 |
|
| #25Tempest_StormwindJul 23, 2015 10:12:35 |
|