Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Talgrath Feb 19, 2015 22:38:09	Hello all, I couldn't find a thread on this, and it's a bit of a head scratcher, I think.  The bard in my group just hit level 6, and he's of the College of Lore, so he gets spells via "Additional Magical Secrets" from any spell list.  My bard player asked if he could change the spells he gets from "Additional Magical Secrets" if he doesn't like what he picked and looking at the rules I realized I'm not quite sure.  Looking at the regular Magical Secrets has made things even murkier.   Q1: Magical Secrets states that a learned spell counts as a bard spell, if you look at the "Spells Known" section it states you can remove a bard spell and then pick another bard spell; but since you learned the non-bard spell one time only would that mean that any non-bard spells you remove cannot be replaced with another non-bard spell?  (Personally I'd say you should be able to, but I'm not sure on this one).   Q2: Additional Magical Secrets explicitly states the learned spells don't count against the spells known, since they aren't officially "known" does that mean the "Spells Known of 1st level and higher" doesn't apply to them and they cannot be removed or otherwise changed? (Personally I'd say you shouldn't be able to on this one since they are specifically not known spells)
#2 lawrencehoy Feb 20, 2015 3:26:15	I'd say that you can cannot learn another non-Bard spell, even with the base Magical Secrets; otherwise, I agree with your reasonings above. The Magical Secrets description specifically states that the new spell is required to be a Bard spell.   EDIT: However, the non-Bard spell could be re-known later, since it is now considered a Bard spell for that Bard.
#3 mellored Feb 20, 2015 5:45:37	It's tricky, with no clear answer.  Depending on how you parse "bard spell" and "bard spell list".   Personally i would allow retraining.
#4 Bumpo Feb 20, 2015 6:10:19	Regardless of the rule, why would you not allow re-training? If the player is asking because he is concerned that he may not like his choice, I would let him retrain. I would much rather GM for a player who was comfortable with their character than one who is not.
#5 Eggnogfool Feb 20, 2015 12:18:25	mellored wrote:
#6 Greenstone.Walker Feb 21, 2015 1:00:46	I would allow the Magical Secrets retraining at the levels where the second Magical Secrets is gained (i.e. 10, 14, 18). At each of these levels the player can choose to replace one non-bard spell list spell with another spell, taken from any spell list. At all other levels, they can replace any bard spell list spell, even if that spell was gained on a magical secrets level.
#7 BoldItalic Feb 21, 2015 6:25:52	My reading is that, the off-list spells you get via [Additional] Magical Secrets go into your pot of spells and, later, when you level up again, one of them can be dropped and replaced if you want to, but only by a Bard spell.   It's different from Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight, where there is an equivalent mechanism but the rules explicitly say that an off-list spell can be replaced by a different off-list one.   Note that [Additional] Magical Secrets allows you to pick a cantrip instead of a regular spell, but once you get a cantrip, you can't swap it out later. The paragraph allowing you to swap a spell when you level up comes under the heading "Spells Known of 1st Level or Higher" so it doesn't apply to cantrips.
#8 Talgrath Feb 22, 2015 0:11:25	Bumpo wrote:
#9 Talgrath Feb 22, 2015 0:12:04	BoldItalic wrote: