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| #1paulstraitOct 11, 2014 21:37:58 | 1) If a character casts Bigby's Hand and uses the Grasping Hand to grapple an opponent, does it matter if the caster is trained in Athletics? The spell says "You use the the hand's Strength score to resolve the grapple." It never says anything about whether the hand itself should be considered trained in Athletics, which otherwise would make a difference in resolving the grapple, so if the caster is trained in Athletics, do they add their proficiency bonus to the check in which they use the hand's Strength score?
2) Why are we given a Dexterity score (10) for the hand? None of its powers seem to use it (unless I'm just misreading something)...
3) When using Interposing Hand, it says "The target can't move through the hand's space if its Strength score is less than or equal to the hand's Strength score." The hand's strength score is 26. Is there a reason it is worded like this, instead of, say, "The target can't move through the hand's space if its Strength score is less than or equal to 26"? The way it is worded makes me wonder if there is some way to modify the Strength score of the hand, but there doesn't seem to be any obvious way to do so. |
| #2NovacatOct 11, 2014 21:53:54 | 1. The hand appears to be treated in all respects as being a separate entity from the caster, so your own skill proficiencies would not apply.
2. I suspect the DEX score given for the hand is to allow it to make DEX saving throws.
3. Some monsters have Strength scores higher than 26. Only PCs are limited to 20. |
| #3paulstraitOct 11, 2014 22:34:21 | What kind of situation would require that the hand make a Dex save?
Also, reread my 3rd question -- I'm not asking about the target (though I didn't realize monsters could have a strength that high until I was looking at this spell), but about the hand's strength. It seems like it would be easier to have just said "...less than or equal to 26", rather than the wordy "...less than or equal to the hand's Strength score." I'm wondering what the designers might have been up to there and if there is any rules implication of wording it in that fashion.
I suspect there's nothing to read into here -- the designers have demonstrated in other spells that they didn't really proofread (e.g., the last sentence of Circle of Power could not have been proofread by anyone), so wordiness certainly doesn't have to mean anything but that they weren't super careful... |
| (Reply to #3)Nevvur |
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| #5paulstraitOct 11, 2014 23:51:41 | hmm, okay, so then that raises one more question for me. What if a spell cast against the hand requires it to make a saving throw that isn't strength or dexterity? Does it automatically succeed (or automatically fail) at such saves? Can it not be targetted at all by spells that require those kinds of saves? Does it use your score? I assume it wouldn't use your score because of Novacat's answer to question 1 above -- if it does use your score, does that mean Novacat's answer is still correct about not using your Athletics proficiency? |
| (Reply to #5)Nevvur |
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| #7paulstraitOct 12, 2014 1:32:28 | Thanks for your replies! I have no idea if they will come up at my table -- surely not any time soon, since all my players have level 4 characters right now -- but if it does, it definitely helps to have thought about it first. |
| #8xtianstoneOct 12, 2014 13:06:30 | This is where being a DM can be fun and creative. Remember that magic is about breaking the rules. Consider some options here. RAW with some of these questions can make you a very rigid storyteller.
I would allow them to use their skill for grappling if they use their action to control the hand, or if they want to cast it 1 level higher.
Normally, I agree. Treat it as a construct with the response of a summoned creature. It will do its best to accomodate the casters desires without bonus. However, for someone skilled in grapple... I'd let them tweak the spell upon casting and allow them to use their grapple skill as long as there is an additional sacrifice on the casters part (with an action, bonus action, or perhaps a level higher).
The reason I am contributing this is because this is the beginning of players realizing that they can create their own spells. Encourage that. Allowing the rules to bend under magic and still being understandable and fair is a wonderful thing. |
| #9NevvurOct 12, 2014 14:02:48 | The spell description does say it mimics the movements of your own hand. If your character is an expert thumb wrestler, apply your athletics score... |
| #102ChlorobutanalOct 12, 2014 19:51:32 | I would not allow a spellcaster's Athletics to apply to Bigby's Hand grasping hand attacks. The hand is the attacker and the hand has a strength of 26, with no mention of Athletics. The spell description says to use the hand's "Strength," not the hand's "Strength (Athletics)."
I would rule thath the hand is immune to any effect that does not cause damage, target AC, or cause a Strength or Dexterity saving throw. It's a spell effect, not a creature, so I would treat it as such (or an unattended object) for the effects of other magic spells such as disintegrate. |
| #11paulstraitOct 12, 2014 20:05:16 |
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| (Reply to #11)2Chlorobutanal | I've definitely considered a spell grappler (who may be trained in Athletics as a background or racial proficiency).
The best (most specialized?) "legitimate" option I've found is a Lore Bard casting telekinesis and adding Jack of All Trades to the opposed Charisma vs. Strength check, then using Peerless Skill or Cutting Words to modify the roll further. |
| #13TimboramaOct 14, 2014 6:41:43 | Just because there are no spells/abilities that would give the Hand less than 26 STR now, does not mean they WON'T come in the future...
(and I also will not let them use personal Athletics proficiency to extend to the hand) |
| #14paulstraitOct 14, 2014 7:49:44 |
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| #15melloredOct 14, 2014 7:53:32 | Arcane Trickseters have a special feature that let's them pick pockets with mage hand. |
| #16paulstraitOct 14, 2014 8:01:32 |
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