Bonus action attack timing - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 mellored Sep 25, 2014 10:29:44	Shield Master: If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove Can you use the bonus action to shove before taking the attack action? How about in between multi-attacks? What about those with similar wording? Polearm Master, Crossbow Expert, Monk's Martial Arts, and Tavern Brawler (though brawler needs a hit). Possibly others.
#2 Plaguescarred1 Sep 25, 2014 11:07:32	You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action’s timing is specified, which Shield Master doesn't do. So whenever you take the Attack action, you can also try to shove before, during or after the Attack action IMO. PHB189 Bonus Action: You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action’s timing is specified
#3 mellored Sep 25, 2014 11:05:24	Plaguescarred wrote:
#4 Plaguescarred1 Sep 25, 2014 11:08:45	mellored wrote:
#5 Direach Sep 25, 2014 11:09:03	That's how I read it. The wording seems to suggest you follow the Attack action with the bonus action (when you take the Attack action on your turn), but it would make more sense to clobber someone to the ground with your shield before striking them. I'd rule it as: if you take the bonus action to shove, you are committing to the Attack action, and if for some reason you can't follow through with the Attack action, it is wasted.
#6 mellored Sep 25, 2014 11:19:58	Plaguescarred wrote:
#7 Plaguescarred1 Sep 25, 2014 12:12:00	Here's what a Shield Master Attack action essentially read like IMO: Attack: The most common action to take in combat is the Attack action, whether you are swinging a sword, firing an arrow from a bow, or brawling with your fists. With this action, you make one melee or ranged attack and you can use a bonus action to try to shove. See the “Making an Attack” section for the rules that govern attacks. Certain features, such as the Extra Attack feature of the fighter, allow you to make more than one attack with this action.
#8 mellored Sep 25, 2014 12:15:31	Plaguescarred wrote:
#9 2ndhandmage Sep 25, 2014 12:40:46	If I understand correctly, a roll is still needed to shove. 1d20+STR MOD (+Proficiency, if you have that stat proficiency) vs Opponents 1d20+DEX MOD (+Proficency, ...) Then we can choose if we want a Push Back or Prone outcome if we win the shove contest. Am I correct in my thinking?
(Reply to #9) Direach	2ndhandmage wrote:
#11 Danny_Montanny Sep 25, 2014 14:13:15	The shove, Strength (Athletics) check, can be contested by the opponents Dexterity (Acrobatics) or Strength (Athletics) check, not just the Dexterity (Acrobatics) check. If you take a bonus action that requres a certain action to activate, and doesn't have specified timing, you're committed to that action no matter what order you take the actions in. Your turn isn't linear, it has flexibility.
#12 2Chlorobutanal Sep 25, 2014 18:20:28	I agree that turn timing is not strictly procedural and a bonus action like the Shield Master shove can be taken before any attacks of the linked Attack action.
#13 FluffyBunbunKittens Sep 26, 2014 2:14:31	The feat is worded like that so you cannot, say, shove someone away with the shield, run off, and then use the Cast action. If it was only meant to be used after attacking, it would say 'after attacking', like many other things do.
#14 RCanine Sep 26, 2014 3:22:35	The way I would rule it is that timing is important to trigger the criteria of the attack. Since the shield master feat requires you to take the attack action, I'd require you to declare that you're taking the attack action to "unlock" that bonus action. Once unlocked, your action is locked in--if something happens that makes you unable to attack, tough luck. But I'd allow you to do it before, after or in between your attacks. The wording of crossbow expert is slightly different. It says, "When you take the attack action and attack with..." which implies timing. In that case, I'd require both attacks to happen at the same time. But if you have multiple attacks on your turn, it could be at the same time as either one of those attacks.
#15 Timborama Sep 26, 2014 6:33:32	It just seems so...weird and power-gamery to say: "I use the attack action!" "Okay, who do you attack?" "Well, no one, yet. I Use my BONUS action to Shove the guy with my shield" "Um...sure?" "Success! Yeah, he's prone! Now I attack him with advantage, using that floating attack action I used at the start of my turn..." It just...feels weird o_O (though I guess you technically run the risk of "wasting" your action if something happens in between you declaring your attack action and actually taking it. I'll allow it though, and just hope none of my PCs notice it!)
#16 Yunru Sep 26, 2014 6:33:57	That's just wording and mechanics though. From a descriptive point of view it's "I'm going to attack this guy, but first I'm going to smash him with my shield!"
#17 Timborama Sep 26, 2014 6:46:46	Yunru wrote:

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

mellored

Sep 25, 2014 10:29:44

Shield Master:

If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use

a bonus action to try to shove

Can you use the bonus action to shove before taking the attack action?

How about in between multi-attacks?

What about those with similar wording?

Polearm Master, Crossbow Expert, Monk's Martial Arts, and Tavern Brawler (though brawler needs a hit). Possibly others.

Plaguescarred1

Sep 25, 2014 11:07:32

You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action’s timing is specified, which Shield Master doesn't do. So whenever you take the Attack action, you can also try to shove before, during or after the Attack action IMO.

PHB189 Bonus Action: You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action’s timing is specified

mellored

Sep 25, 2014 11:05:24

Plaguescarred wrote:

Plaguescarred1

Sep 25, 2014 11:08:45

mellored wrote:

Direach

Sep 25, 2014 11:09:03

That's how I read it. The wording seems to suggest you follow the Attack action with the bonus action (when you take the Attack action on your turn), but it would make more sense to clobber someone to the ground with your shield before striking them. I'd rule it as: if you take the bonus action to shove, you are committing to the Attack action, and if for some reason you can't follow through with the Attack action, it is wasted.

mellored

Sep 25, 2014 11:19:58

Plaguescarred wrote:

Plaguescarred1

Sep 25, 2014 12:12:00

Here's what a Shield Master Attack action essentially read like IMO:

Attack: The most common action to take in combat is the Attack action, whether you are swinging a sword, firing an arrow from a bow, or brawling with your fists. With this action, you make one melee or ranged attack and you can use a bonus action to try to shove. See the “Making an Attack” section for the rules that govern attacks. Certain features, such as the Extra Attack feature of the fighter, allow you to make more than one attack with this action.

mellored

Sep 25, 2014 12:15:31

Plaguescarred wrote:

2ndhandmage

Sep 25, 2014 12:40:46

If I understand correctly, a roll is still needed to shove.

1d20+STR MOD (+Proficiency, if you have that stat proficiency) vs Opponents 1d20+DEX MOD (+Proficency, ...)

Then we can choose if we want a Push Back or Prone outcome if we win the shove contest.

Am I correct in my thinking?

(Reply to #9)

Direach

2ndhandmage wrote:

#11

Danny_Montanny

Sep 25, 2014 14:13:15

The shove, Strength (Athletics) check, can be contested by the opponents Dexterity (Acrobatics) or Strength (Athletics) check, not just the Dexterity (Acrobatics) check.

If you take a bonus action that requres a certain action to activate, and doesn't have specified timing, you're committed to that action no matter what order you take the actions in. Your turn isn't linear, it has flexibility.

#12

2Chlorobutanal

Sep 25, 2014 18:20:28

I agree that turn timing is not strictly procedural and a bonus action like the Shield Master shove can be taken before any attacks of the linked Attack action.

#13

FluffyBunbunKittens

Sep 26, 2014 2:14:31

The feat is worded like that so you cannot, say, shove someone away with the shield, run off, and then use the Cast action. If it was only meant to be used after attacking, it would say 'after attacking', like many other things do.

#14

RCanine

Sep 26, 2014 3:22:35

The way I would rule it is that timing is important to trigger the criteria of the attack. Since the shield master feat requires you to take the attack action, I'd require you to declare that you're taking the attack action to "unlock" that bonus action. Once unlocked, your action is locked in--if something happens that makes you unable to attack, tough luck. But I'd allow you to do it before, after or in between your attacks.

The wording of crossbow expert is slightly different. It says, "When you take the attack action and attack with..." which implies timing. In that case, I'd require both attacks to happen at the same time. But if you have multiple attacks on your turn, it could be at the same time as either one of those attacks.

#15

Timborama

Sep 26, 2014 6:33:32

It just seems so...weird and power-gamery to say:

"I use the attack action!"

"Okay, who do you attack?"

"Well, no one, yet. I Use my BONUS action to Shove the guy with my shield"

"Um...sure?"

"Success! Yeah, he's prone! Now I attack him with advantage, using that floating attack action I used at the start of my turn..."

It just...feels weird o_O

(though I guess you technically run the risk of "wasting" your action if something happens in between you declaring your attack action and actually taking it. I'll allow it though, and just hope none of my PCs notice it!)

#16

Yunru

Sep 26, 2014 6:33:57

That's just wording and mechanics though. From a descriptive point of view it's "I'm going to attack this guy, but first I'm going to smash him with my shield!"

#17

Timborama

Sep 26, 2014 6:46:46

Yunru wrote: