I brought this up in the rules question thread but it's probably not the best place to really discuss it and get clarification so I'm posting it as a seperate topic.
It started off as a question about throwing daggers. If I have two daggers in hand, I can throw both in one turn. But what happens next turn? The answer given was that I could draw one dagger as a free action on the same turn as I'd just thrown two and then on the second turn draw another before firing off both. Then in the third round, I could use Fast Hands to draw one and draw a second as part of the attack action.
But all of this is then confused by Fast Hands being a bonus action and only being allowed one bonus action per turn. But is Fast Hands an extra bonus action? After all, anyone can do a bonus action and the entire point of Cunning Action is to gain an extra benefit above and beyond other classes.
Then you get Thief's Reflexes at which point my head starts to spin and I get nauseous just thinking about how to resolve that.
Drawing a weapon is not a bonus action, it can be done as part of an attack action, so it works with Fast Hand. But because both Fast Hand and Two-Weapon Fighting use a bonus action, you would not be able to use both on the same turn. Thief's Reflexe would allow you to take 2 turns during the first round, but still bound you to the same usage limitation of bonus action to 1/turn.
BR72 Use an Object: You normally interact with an object while doing something else, such as when you draw a sword as part of an attack. When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action. This action is also useful when you want to interact with more than one object on your turn.
So can I then draw two weapons and make a ranged attack with two weapons every turn? And what about Theif's Reflexes? Does that mean I could then throw four daggers in the first round? Or can you only get one "free" action per turn? In which case does that mean I'd be essentially making two attacks every second round... I think... it's getting confusing.
akaddk wrote:
Plaguescarred wrote:
If you throw your two daggers, you need to draw two again to attack with both do you? 
(drawing the second dagger compete with the same ressource (bonus action) use to do Two-Weapon Fighting)
Round 1: start with two daggers in your hand. Attack action to throw both, consuming bonus action. Draw one dagger.
Round 2: draw second dagger. Attack action to throw both, consuming bonus action.
Round 3: draw single dagger, make killing attack, combat over.
or DM could simply let you draw two daggers as a free action so you can emulate the archetype.
Wuzzard wrote:
ok, starting with relevant quotations from basic rules
page 27
right column, paragraph 8, "You can take a bonus action on each of your turns in combat. This action can be used only to take the Dash, Disengage, or Hide action."
page 28
right column, paragraph 4, "you can use the bonus action granted by your Cunning Action to make a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check, use your thieves’ tools to disarm a trap or open a lock, or take the Use an Object action."
page 69
right column, paragraph 10, "You can take only one bonus action on your turn, so you must choose which bonus action to use when you have more than one available."
page 70
left column, paragraph 3, "You can also interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or your action. "
left column, paragraph 4, "If you want to interact with a second object, you need to use your action."
sidebar, "Here are a few examples of the sorts of thing you can do in tandem with your movement and action:
• draw or sheathe a sword"
page 72
right column, paragraph 6, "You normally interact with an object while doing something else, such as when you draw a sword as part of an attack. When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action. This action is also useful when you want to interact with more than one object on your turn"
page 74
left column, paragraphs 4 & 5, "When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand. You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it"
Therefore, if you start with 2 daggers drawn,
round 1, standard action to attack with (throw) first dagger during which you draw a dagger for free, two-weapon fighting bonus action to attack with (throw) second dagger. so you are left with one dagger in hand.
round 2, standard action to attack with (throw) first dagger during which you draw a dagger for free, two-weapon fighting bonus action to attack with (throw) second dagger. so you are left with zero daggers in hand.
round 3, standard action to draw a dagger for free and attack with (throw) dagger. fast hands bonus action to use an object to draw dagger. so you are left with one dagger in hand.
after this it is cycle of repeating rounds 2 and 3 until finished.
I hope this clears up the matter for you.
Daxarth wrote:
akaddk wrote:
Daxarth wrote:
akaddk wrote:
akaddk wrote:
Wuzzard wrote:
I don't really see a problem with allowing a character, using two-weapon fighting, to draw and attack (melee or ranged) two daggers in the same round/turn. Drawing two daggers simultaneously isn't much different than just drawing one.
If it's a concern about this option being over-powered, just limit it to simultaneous attacks against a single target; then, it can't be used in conjunction with split movement and/or separate targets. I don't really see a need for such a limitation though.
Better yet, just make it a benefit of the Dual Wielding Feat; then, it requires some resources to gain the benefit and you don't need to add the suggested limitation.
In fact, both methods can be used, even at the same table.
I also would simply let a character do this. It isn't overpowered.
Would you really play that Drizzt needs two turns to draw his scimitars and start fighting?
jaelis wrote:
I'm reasonably confident that there will be a Quick-Draw feat or feature in the PHB, or, failing that, an upcoming publication. There has been Quick-Draw for the past 2 editions, and probably somewhere in 2nd Edition Complete books or Skills and Powers.
If I am recalling correctly, 3rd edition dagger-throwers could not make iterative attacks without Quick Draw.
Drizzt is just an example. Would you really require any TWF character to take two rounds to get ready to fight?
I will bet against quick draw. Feats aren't like that in 5e.
Well, they could add it to the TWF feat, I suppose, that would work.
jaelis wrote:
I think the motto of 5e is, don't go by the letter of the rules if it doesn't make sense!
Yeah there is minimal game impact on letting players draw 2 weapons in one turn. I don't think I ever checked a player on that in the entirety of 3.0-3.5. However, in theorycrafting or potentially in sanctioned play, it could come up.
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
Sorry to dredge this up, but I'd like to ask for a clarification that I don't think is fully addressed in the conversation to date.
Specifically, does the rule allowing you to draw your weapon as a part of the action you use to attack with that weapon (PHB pg. 190, left column, 3rd paragraph, "...or you could draw your weapon as a part of the same action you use to attack.") apply to the bonus action you use to attack with a second weapon? (Per Two-Weapon Fighting, PHB pg. 195, right column, first heading.) Does the bonus action used for TWF count as "the same action you use to attack"? In other words, using these two RAW, can I draw a light weapon and attack with it, then use my bonus action to draw a second light weapon and attack with that as well?
If the answer to the above is yes, then what is the purpose of the third part of the Dual Wielder feat, where it states "You can draw or stow two one-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one."? (PHB pg. 165, right column, last paragraph) Is this more about swapping weapons than about just drawing them? The language confuses me, if it is not intended to allow drawing a second weapon, but the RAW in my previous paragraph seem to already allow drawing that second weapon as a part of that bonus attack action.
Is there any sort of official clarification on this, or are we all just doing our best as a community to wordsmith it? Thanks for any insights you can give.
Just have a leather crafter make you a dagger bandolier so that you can draw the daggers like ammunition as opposed to hurled weapons.
danglading wrote:
paulstrait wrote:
Not sure where the confusion is. Drawing your weapon uses up your object interaction for the turn and is just one example. From page 70 of the basic rules
You can also interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or your action. For example, you could open a door during your move as you stride toward a foe, or you could draw your weapon as part of the same action you use to attack.
Is clarified by the second paragraph
If you want to interact with a second object, you need to use your action.
So drawing a second weapon would normally take an action.
Plaguescarred and Daxarth gave the correct answers. Sorry if that's not what you were hoping for.
danglading wrote:
paulstraight: Thank you for the thorough and detailed response. I appreciate the thoughtfulness.
I actually agree with pretty much everything you set forth in your reasoning. I have one minor difference of opinion, which I don't think is anything earth-shattering, but it matters:
paulstrait wrote:
danglading wrote:
danglading wrote:
Oh, also, are you attempting to throw dagger, or make melee attacks? If it is throwing daggers, it seems like you'd have to start with them both in your hands to make it work, otherwise you'd have a problem every round. If it is making melee attacks, you are right that it would prevent you from using TWF in your first round, but again, only if you didn't have a weapon drawn. If you get ambushed, okay, but otherwise, why don't you have your weapon already drawn?
After writing my last dissertation, things started to settle in my mind. Similar to randl, I began thinking that the DW feat is the specific that modifies the general rules of object interaction and TWF. paulstrait's comments sort of firmed up my thinking in that direction as well. My DM and I discussed it further, and this is what we think best fits the RAW:
1. During initiative, players can declare their state of armament (with exceptions, such as an ambush, or you're already holding a torch in one hand and a rope in the other, or whatever).
2. Object interaction rules allow one weapon to be drawn per round, either as a part of your Attack action, or as a part of your bonus TWF action, but not both.
3. Dual Wielder feat modifies rule 2 above.
That pretty much covers it, I think. If I start combat with two shortswords drawn, there is no issue. TWF FTW! (Sorry, I couldn't resist.) If I start combat with two daggers drawn, I can chuck them both using TWF in round 1, draw a short sword as a part of my attack action in round 2 (no TWF this round), and draw a second short sword as a part of my move or my bonus TWF action in round 3. Once I get the DW feat, I can freely throw two daggers per round for multiple rounds (with reasonable "where were you keeping that dagger?" rulings in force), or throw the daggers for one round and dive in with dual short swords the next round.
That approach seems to fit the RAW, and also seems to fit the spirit of 5e's streamlined design approach. Thanks again to all for the dialogue, it really helped me think this one through.
I think that sounds absolutely consistent with the rules. Glad to be of help and that you worked it out. Do post if Crawford responds to the tweet though.
Glad I was able to help. Personally, I don't like some of the throwing rules. For my home game i will probably let players skin darts into any small throwing weapons (throwing knives, stars, etc.) and then use them more like ammunition to an unarmed ranged weapon attack.