Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 LancasterMatt Oct 24, 2014 3:14:13	Is it possible to use a bounus move and dash in the same turn?   If so I see a bit of a problem with Orcs: If they can bonus move and dash they move 90' in a turn - which is faster that a dashing PC on foot or on a pony. Which means that unless the characters are all on horses - with no baggage that in any encouter the orcs can run down the players.   I am setting my starter campaign in an area troubled by Orc incursions. So I was designing a scouting mission. This would not work with super fast orcs because if the players find an orc band (mission objective) and fail a single stealth roll they will be run down - they will be caught - and they will all die.
#2 Plaguescarred1 Oct 24, 2014 3:43:48	I believe an orc that use the Dash action and the Aggresive bonus action to move its up to its speed will only move 30 ft from it because  the Dash action doesn't increase your speed, it let you gain extra movement. So he'd be able to move 90 ft total;  30 [Speed] + 30 [Dash] + 30 [Aggressive]     Aggressive: As a bonus action, the orc can move up to its speed  toward a hostile creature that it can see.   Dash: When you take the Dash action, you gain extra  movement for the current turn. The increase equals  your speed, after applying any modifiers. With a speed of 30 feet, for example, you can move up to 60 feet on your  turn if you dash. Any increase or decrease to your speed changes this additional movement by the same amount. If your speed of 30 feet is reduced to 15 feet, for instance, you can move up to 30 feet this turn if you dash.
#3 Noctaem Oct 24, 2014 5:55:31	and a rogue can run down anything that moves in the game by doing dash as a their movement, dash as their bonus action and dash as their action.   I wouldn't worry about it, if you're the DM just don't always bonus move + dash if it's really a bother to you.  Furthermore if the best you can come up with if the orcs do discover the party is create a kill or be killed scenario, maybe you should read up on what DM'ing is about some more.  Kill or be killed isn't always fun, it can be, but most of the time if the party loses a fight they would rather have something more interesting than just dying be the result.  Why don't the orcs capture them instead with threats of roasting them on the spit.  Then the party gets to have fun escaping their bonds, finding their gear, etc...    Use your imagination!   EDIT: a good point plaguescarred
#4 LancasterMatt Oct 24, 2014 5:22:22	Noctaem wrote:
(Reply to #3) Timborama	Noctaem wrote:
#6 Noctaem Oct 24, 2014 5:55:05	oh wait, that's my mistake.  It is additive to your total movement, not multiplicative and it does not stack with previous dash increases.  You get 30 per dash, not 60.   Fixed my post.
#7 Noctaem Oct 24, 2014 6:03:01	LancasterMatt wrote:
#8 LancasterMatt Oct 24, 2014 6:03:52	Noctaem wrote:
#9 Noctaem Oct 24, 2014 6:07:52	LancasterMatt wrote:
#10 Lord_Avalanche Oct 24, 2014 13:10:49	My inclination is to play the orcs as written: Fast, strong and terrifying. The charge of an orc band should make urine flow freely!   With that in mind, perhaps they could benefit from having intelligence on the orcs first - a good chance for a ranger to shine with favoured enemy.   They may be warned by their superiors: "Whatever you do, don't let those monsters see you. An orc warrior will run you down like a lioness on a sick zebra. Here. Take these in case all goes to hell." [Hands the party several bags of caltrops and a holy symbol of Kord.] "If these ground spikes don't work, you'd better start prayin', boys..."   Pass without trace or invisibility could ease the burden also, giving the party a leg up when they are out of their depths. A scroll might be given to the party by the village elders or whatever. Maybe use a Disguise kit to disguise the party as trees - gaining a proficiency bonus on their stealth rolls.   If none of this appeals, perhaps tone down the orc band numbers to make it a very difficult, but not super-deadly, encounter.
#11 LancasterMatt Oct 24, 2014 15:19:29	You make good suggestions Lord_Avalanche.   On reflection, I reckon in my world I'll make it EITHER Dash or Bonus Move. I don't want orcs moving faster than a galloping pony.   Orcs will still get benefit from being able to move twice and still be left with their normal action. (Which dashing troops won't).
#12 Coredump00 Oct 24, 2014 16:32:27	Or treat it like a burst... they can only do it every other round, or some other similar limiting factor.
(Reply to #12) Timborama	Coredump00 wrote:
#14 abs1nth Oct 24, 2014 20:27:43	I would probably ask for an athletics check to see if they could pull off a double dash but I'd say the result would be known before comitting the action after move+1st dash.
#15 FrogReaver Oct 25, 2014 1:21:22	Being able to escape from combat by using combat mechanics just won't work.  Speed is such a simple mechanic (even with dash and othe rmove abilities that it's quite clear up front who is going to win a race (and always will).  There is no chance of escape if the enemy can move faster than you.  That works vice versa as well.     If you want escape scenarios where creatures slower overall can get away from a faster creature (which happens often in real life) then I would suggest resolving such a situation with athletics and acrobatics and constituion checks.  Maybe once all the players decide to retreat you have them roll atheletics to detmine whose running away the slowest.  Occasionly have them roll acrobatics to try and keep their footing.  After running so long make them roll a con check to make sure they aren't getting tired and slowing down.  If there's any terrain that can block line of sight make sure to have the chasing creatures also roll perception to determine if they know which way the fleeing party is running.
(Reply to #15) GilbertMDH	FrogReaver wrote:
#17 BW0222 Oct 25, 2014 8:22:48	Lord_Avalanche's warning take is likely a good one.   I'll also point out that just because creatures can do something doesn't mean that they will. If the players flee from orcs and the orcs aren't necessarily going to automatically run them down. They might be in fear of being ambushed, may not wish to get too far away from the other orcs (who can't see the group), may not wish to get too far away from their lair, etc. I'm willing to bet that most sylvan elves have played that game with orcs ... come chase me... into pits, snares, or several dozen sylvan elves in tree with bows. Remember, orcs can't flee any faster than anyone else.   As a DM, along with Avalanche's warnings, I'd seriously consider having the orcs stop persuit anytime they enter areas which they aren't familiar with, which have terrain suitable for ambushes, which take them too far from a lair, if the PCs do anything to break vision (fog cloud, darkness, etc.) or slow them (entangle, etc.), if there are distractions or noises (say a raven familiar in the woods/grasses), etc.  This might change if the orcs know the PCs are alone, they have specific orders to hunt them down, say a missing ring or something, etc. Smart PCs would also likely see forest, tall grassy areas, etc. and have spells to aid in escaping if they plan on encountering orcs.   Obviously as a DM, one needs to be careful using orcs as they need to remember that they have an ability which makes PCs generally unable to flee from them. PCs may be forced to fight it out. However, this is often true of many creatures. Kobolds who employ pact tactics can be utterly brutal to low-level PCs. Again, Avalanche's warnings are a good idea to help PCs prepare. Spread out, don't let them gang up on you, etc.
#18 El_Condoro Oct 25, 2014 22:12:36	Because the name of the trait is "Aggressive" rather than "Fast" or "Quick", I would houserule the orc ability this way:   Aggressive. As a bonus action, the orc can move up to its speed toward a hostile creature that it can see if it would allow it to make a melee attack at the end of the bonus action.   But, even without that change, the "that it can see" part of the description means any full cover the characters had would negate the trait. It would depend on the environment a lot, of course.
#19 Clutchbone Oct 26, 2014 8:01:15	The orcs can always get tired from sprinting too much. You can have them roll constitution checks vs the PCs in a chase to see who gets tired... Maybe horses or ponies could have advantage on these, or maybe the PCs can use Athletics/ Acrobatics/ Deception/ Survival/ Stealth checks to impose disadvantage on the orcs by zig-zagging or whatever.
#20 Lord_Avalanche Oct 26, 2014 17:34:29	Or restrict the bonus movement to a straight line, like the old charging rule. This way, you could head for the trees or difficult terrain to impede their progress - just don't get caught out in the open!
(Reply to #20) grendel111111	Lord_Avalanche wrote:
#22 Noon Oct 27, 2014 2:15:59	Yeah, I don't get it with the rogue - his speed is, say, 25. If he dashes instead of his attack then dashes again on the bonus attack, he goes 75 feet in one turn?   Do monks get this with their speed increases, or are rogues more lightfoot than monks?
#23 jonathonhawke Oct 27, 2014 6:49:51	Monks can do it too, but they have to spend a ki point (Step of the Wind, PHB pg 78)
#24 cave2626 Oct 27, 2014 12:35:14	I think people are misinterpreting/misunderstanding the way Dash works. Your action is to Dash, but until you expend your movement you don’t actually go anywhere. Action = Dash, then movement = 2x normal.   If I’m a level 2+ Rogue I can expend my Action or Bonus Action to Dash, but I still only get 1 movement on my turn. So when I move it’s still only 2x speed.   Think of it like Dodge. A Rogue can take the Dodge action as his Action or Bonus Action. Dodging twice on his turn doesn’t give him any more of a dodging bonus than dodging once. Similarly, dashing twice on my turn doesn’t let me move any farther or faster than if I’d only dashed once. Dash is the action part of your turn, not the movement part.   It helps if you stop thinking in 3e/4e terms of double move. In 5e you only ever get a single move, it’s just a matter of how fast you go when you move.   In the case of the Orc they could use their action to Dash, then as their movement go 60ft (30ft x2). In this specific example, an Orc’s Bonus Action allows him to move up to his speed of 30, but Dash gives you “extra movement for your current turn” so as long as the Orc already used the Dash action on that same turn his movement is still at x2. So the Orc could cover 120ft in one turn (30ft x 2 + 30ft x 2), but they wouldn’t be able to attack since they used their action to Dash.
#25 El_Condoro Oct 27, 2014 13:06:08	I don't think that's correct.   Dash says you gain extra movement for that turn equal to your movement after modifiers. If the creatures movement is 30 ft. they get 30 ft. each time they dash (once as an action, once as a bonus), plus their movement of 30 ft., for a total of 90 ft. It's an addition not a multiplication.
#26 Clutchbone Oct 27, 2014 13:49:14	"~When you take the Dash action, you gain extra movement for the current turn. The increase equals your speed, after applying any modifiers. With a speed of 30 feet, for example, you can move up to 60 feet on your turn if you dash."   So you can move 30ft, take the Dash action to gain 30ft more movement, and then (as a rogue) use Cunning Action to Dash as a bonus action to gain an additional 30ft movement.
#27 Noon Oct 29, 2014 17:29:04	It seems stupid fast - something the monk should be doing, not the rogue. Let alone the rogue doing it for free (bonus actions refreshing much faster than KI, obviously)
#28 2Chlorobutanal Oct 29, 2014 20:01:22	I think the big difference here is that Monks get overall increased speed, in additional to a limited bonus action Dash.   I don't have my book right now, but I believe Monk bonus speed goes up to 30', or close to it.  That means a high-level Monk gets a "free" Dash every round, and can still perform another bonus action (and regular action), unlike a Rogue.  Additionally, if the Monk does choose to Dash as a bonus action (and/or action), each Dash will be about twice as valuable as a Rogue's Dash.
(Reply to #28) Clutchbone	Noon wrote:
(Reply to #28) Coredump00	2Chlorobutanal wrote:
(Reply to #30) Clutchbone	Coredump00 wrote:
(Reply to #31) Coredump00	Clutchbone wrote:
(Reply to #27) ProphetSword	Noon wrote:
#34 Coredump00 Oct 31, 2014 7:00:13	He also maintained that for only 60 feet during a 300 foot run.  WIth absolutely nothing encumbering, on an ideal footing with nothing to distract him (like arrows and spells)  Let him try that in a broken field with 10 kobolds and a bugbear after him.....     Besides, the only real importance is the *relative* speed compared to other people/things in the game.