Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 invalidortaken Feb 02, 2015 22:27:08	On p.198 of the PHB, the text reads: "[A controlled mount]...moves as you direct it, and it has only three action options: Dash, Disengage, and Dodge."   That seems to pretty resoundingly answer the question as "No"---except that the Warhorse (p. 311) has rules for what happens after it hits with a hooves attack.  Is the intent that warhorses run around uncontrolled so they can make attacks?  This seems...unlikely.  Is there any way to direct a mount to attack?   Thanks in advance.
#2 Drunemeton Feb 02, 2015 22:44:04	You're correct. Since Attack isn't an option, Bob's your Uncle.
#3 RulesJD Feb 03, 2015 3:07:36	invalidortaken wrote:
#4 RCanine Feb 04, 2015 20:49:05	I would allow you to spend your action in order to command your mount to take any action available in it's stat block. Ask your DM.
#5 Noon Feb 04, 2015 22:20:14	The answer is - the warhorse can attack. But it's run by the DM - so he decides if it will attack.
(Reply to #4) darkclutches	RCanine wrote:
#7 texassnowman Mar 02, 2015 13:03:23	darkclutches wrote:
#8 RulesJD Mar 02, 2015 14:10:59	texassnowman wrote:
(Reply to #8) darkclutches	RulesJD wrote:
(Reply to #9) texassnowman	darkclutches wrote:
#11 Kalani Mar 03, 2015 8:36:12	You are misunderstanding the mounted combat rules. You can always allow a mount to act indepdendently. This includes common riding horses, warhorses, and yes - even your summoned steed. Look at it this way:   When you are mounted on an intelligent mount: Your mount acts independently. This is non-optional When you are mounted on a non-intelligent mount (beasts usually), you have the option to: Let your mount act independently, OR Control your mount. AFAIK, you retain both options for the entire time you remain mounted, allowing you to control your mount one turn, and allow it to act independently the next. A trained warhorse or summoned steed that was allowed to act independently would most likely attack the closest enemy target, or the same target you attacked (if multiple targets are adjacent). A riding horse would likely rear up, take the disengage action, and flee. An elephant would likely trample or pick up an enemy in its trunk and throw it (grapple/shove).   Specific beats general The find steed spell is unclear as to whether you retain the ability to control your summoned steed. However, this point is moot as it specifically states that you "act as a seamless unit". As such, think of your summoned steed as an extension of your PC, acting on the same initiative count (as acting on its own initiative is far from seamless, requiring the use of ready actions on your part if you desire to strike a target currently at a distance).    There are notable differences between a non-intelligent mount acting independently and your summoned steed as well - for example:   Movement - Warhorse: An independant warhorse will move in the direction indicated by the most direct route possible. It lacks the intelligence to avoid opportunity attacks, and will most likely move toward the most obvious target in that direction and end its movement there (moving in straight lines where possible). It is controlled by the DM Movement - Riding Horse: An independent riding horse would take the disengage action, and attempt to flee combat by the most direct route. It is controlled by the DM Movement - Elephant: An independent elephant is far smarter than the Dev's gave it credit, but going by the RAW - it will likely move in straight lines, and trample anything that get's in its way. It is controlled by the DM Movement - Tiger: While an atypical mount, an independent tiger will choose a random target and stalk them (if hungry). If angered, it hunt the target of its rage, following them whenever possible. Otherwise, its movements are slow, lazy, and deliberate intersperced with bursts of speed (for funsies). Tigers are somewhat intelligent and will attempt to avoid other combatants (excluding its chosen target). This does not mean it is smart enough to avoid Opportunity Attacks. It simply means it prefers to kite its target, and move circuitously about the battlefield, in the least populated areas. It is controlled by the DM Movement - Summoned Steed: The summoned steed will move as an extension of your PC, moving exactly in the fashion you wish. It is controlled by the PC Combat - Warhorse: An independent warhorse will either attack the same target as its rider (if possible), or will attack the closest target - choosing randomly in the case of multiple targets. It will continue attacking the same target until it is dead, or no longer in its reach - even if other (more optimal) targets present themselves. It is controlled by the DM (but I let the PC roll any attack/damage rolls it makes). Combat - Riding Horse: An independent riding horse will only attack when cornered and unable to flee. It will choose a random target within range, and will attack it until able to flee. It is controlled by the DM Combat - Elephant: An independent elephant will avoid combat unless angered (such as by being attacked). Once enraged, an elephant will destroy anything in its path - and would not distinguish between allies or enemies, unless it considers those allies to be close personal friends/family. It will trample, strike, grapple, and throw anything that comes within its reach. It is controlled by the DM (but I allow my PCs to make the attack/damage rolls) Combat - Tiger: An independent tiger will attack its chosen victim until said victim is dead, or the tiger is driven off by fire, or pain. It will maul, rend, and tear into its target - grappling it to the ground at the first opportunity. The PC has little ability to control who the tiger will attack, but it will most likely attack any creature that angers it. Combat - Summoned Steed: The summoned steed will attack the specific targets that you wish it to, and will even make the desired number of attacks against each target. It is controlled by the PC The same occurs in respect to summoned creatures via spells... They act independently of the PC, but will obey verbal commands. Should a command not be issued, summoned creatures will usually attack the closest enemy target.
(Reply to #11) texassnowman	Kalani wrote:
#13 RulesJD Mar 03, 2015 15:15:08	texassnowman wrote:
(Reply to #12) darkclutches	texassnowman wrote:
#15 RCanine Mar 03, 2015 21:21:40	darkclutches wrote:
#16 Kalani Mar 03, 2015 21:51:28	There is another factor that many people may not realize.....   Just because you can control a nonintelligent mount does not mean that you must control it. You can let it act independently according to its intelligence - and if you do, it can make attacks as per its nature and/or training (in the case of a warhorse). The only time this isn't an option is in the case of an intelligent mount, which always acts independently.   Such is the case in resepct to the mount summoned by the find steed spell, with one major boon..... Not only does it act independently, but you can communicate telepathically with it, and it always follows your wishes (like an extension of your PC). Other intelligent mounts may consider your wishes, but still act contrary to them as they deem fit (especially true in respect to willfull creatures such as dragons). The summoned steed OTOH, is 100% loyal, and will defer to your wishes in all things.
(Reply to #15) darkclutches	RCanine wrote:
(Reply to #14) texassnowman	darkclutches wrote:
#19 Kalani Mar 04, 2015 7:23:33	The summoned steed is not a horse though (which is a beast)... It is an intelligent spirit that happens to take the form of a horse. Big difference.    Spirits =/= beasts. That is your first mistake (of many).   Second mistake: It does not require an action to control your mount. It is a non-action. Controlling a mount places limits on the mounts own actions. It does not affect the PCs actions in any way.   Ignore the rangers companion. It has nothing to do with controlling a mount, and is a separate (and self-contained) situation entirely. Nothing in the ranger class affects the find steed spell, or the mounted combat rules - and vice versa (with the exception of a ranger who uses their beast companion as a mount).    The thing I find absolutely hilarous - is that people think allowing your mount to attack is OP.... This is laughable. If your game is so poorly balanced that a single extra attack will disrupt your game balance.....you have bigger issues to worry about.   Allowing a paladin's steed to attack - is a far cry from OP. In fact, allowing a bonus action attack (of any damage) is more powerful for the following reasons: It only grants one extra attack a round. That attack is tied to an exceptionally vulnerable target (the mount). The mount has Low AC (beasts are not known for AC), and has non-scaling HP, Attack Bonus, Damage, Skills, and Saving Throws. This results in diminishing returns, albeit partially mitigated by the bounded accuracy mechanics. The mount places considerable strain on the parties healing reserves. Even at the level the spell is first gained (5th level), the mount could easily be killed by any foe of appropriate challenge (CR5+). The mount has issues with space/maneuverability, due to its size. Unless the paladin spends an even more limited resource to gain the mounted combat feat - their mount is more of a liability than an asset. I really don't see what the problem is...IMHO I would prefer to have an elephant, take the mounted combat feat, and allow my elephant mount to act independently. Far more efficient, and better HP.
(Reply to #19) texassnowman	Kalani wrote:
(Reply to #18) darkclutches	texassnowman wrote:
#22 RCanine Mar 04, 2015 8:19:48	texassnowman wrote:
#23 Kalani Mar 04, 2015 8:41:09	texassnowman wrote:
(Reply to #22) texassnowman	RCanine wrote:
#25 Kalani Mar 04, 2015 9:28:42	@texassowman   Specific beats general. The General rule for mounted actions is the mounted combat [rule]. The General rule states that you can control a nonintelligent mount. IF you control your mounts actions, your mount is limited to the dash, disengage and dodge actions. IF you allow your mount to act independently - it retains its order in the initiative, but has no limits on its actions. Intelligent mounts always act independently. This point is irrelevant (as explained below). Under normal circumstances, you have two options when mounted. Control your mount Let it act independently The intelligent mount clause is irrelevant for our discussion. All it does is remove the first option (controlling your mount). As such, lets remove that option from the discussion as it too is irrelevant.   You can always let your mount act independently - regardless of intelligence. What it does when acting independently however, is subject to DM fiat - based on how they interpret its intelligence. Note how the intelligent mount clause uses the word always. This implies that the general rule is that both options are available, except in the case of an intelligent mount. Had they intended the mounted combat rules to function differently for intelligent/non-intelligent mounts, they would not have used an exception clause. They would have given two separate rules..... One for nonintelligent mounts (eg. nonintelligent mounts are limited to the dash, disengage, or dodge actions) and one for intelligent mounts (intelligent mounts retain their initiative, and actions.....).    Such was not the case.  They created a general rule, and an exception to that rule for intelligent mounts.   Now that we know how the general rule for mounts functions, we can get to the specifics.   Find Steed   The mount may/may not be considered to be an intelligent mount.  If it is treated as an intelligent mount by your DM, it always acts independently. Otherwise, you retain both options. (This is actually preferable) Regardless of its intelligence, the mount follows your wishes exactly (removing DM fiat from the equation).  The spell contains no specific rules which further limit the mounts actions As such, the general rule for mounted combat applies - including the option to let our conjured steed act independently. Ergo: Your conjured steed retains its normal action, reaction, move and bonus action(s), if any - when allowed to act independently.   The question is not whether you can let it act independently, but whether you can control its actions. At your table - the steed is just a smarter-than-average example of its type, and can be controlled normally. At my table, it is an intelligent mount and always acts independently.
(Reply to #24) darkclutches	texassnowman wrote:
(Reply to #23) texassnowman	Kalani wrote:
#28 jonathonhawke Mar 04, 2015 9:50:45	texassnowman wrote:
#29 Kalani Mar 04, 2015 10:13:50	texassnowman wrote:
#30 Kalani Mar 04, 2015 10:11:26	Regarding "conjure x" spells I assumed that texassnowman had correctly read the rules for these spells. My assumption was in error apparently (pays to read the description of the spells before answering). I redact my comments about the conjure x spells - as they were in error.    The only reason I never read the spell descriptions for these spells is because they had no bearing on how find steed operated, and therefore irrelevant to my point (as individual spells have no bearing on how other spells function unless they specifically refer to them in their description).
(Reply to #28) texassnowman	jonathonhawke wrote:
(Reply to #30) texassnowman	Kalani wrote:
#33 texassnowman Mar 04, 2015 10:18:05	Kalani wrote:
#34 Kalani Mar 04, 2015 10:23:58	texassnowman wrote:
(Reply to #34) texassnowman	Kalani wrote:
#36 RulesJD Mar 04, 2015 11:15:46	Generally speaking, 5 is the breaking point of Intelligence. There are more examples, but the easiest is the spell restriction for Tasha's Hideous Laughter.  It requires an Intelligence score of 5 or higher for the effect because otherwise the creature can't understand why something would be funny. I am glad this productive conservation took place.
#37 darkclutches Mar 04, 2015 11:18:52	Texas,   Please take a look at my rebuttals in post #26 of this thread. I believe some of your assertions to be incorrect and hope these will provide clarification.
(Reply to #36) texassnowman	RulesJD wrote:
(Reply to #26) texassnowman	darkclutches wrote:
#40 Kalani Mar 04, 2015 12:23:09	texassnowman wrote:
#41 RulesJD Mar 04, 2015 14:29:39	What other possible reason would they have for changing the Int to 6?  Your argument makes no sense and is refuted by other metrics given in the game that rely on Intelligence, such as the spell I listed.  Evil characters are absolutely going to keep intelligent creatures as pets, so that provides you no standing to base your argument upon. Futhermore, the Find Steed spell specifically lets DMs have the steed take a different form.  Therefore, you could have the Paladin get a Unicorn, Nightmare, Griffon, or even a Dragon as a mount.  Given that those creatures Intelligence is well above 6, those mounts can clearly take the Attack action.  Thus, your argument is that only the mounts with 6 Intelligence can't attack but any above that, which are clearly permitted by RAW, are allowed to attack?   You have to face the fact that an intelligence score of 6 is an Intelligent mount for the purposes of whether it may act Independently.  Many of the buff spells that a Paladin has access to that can also be shared with their mount rely on the steed being able to attack, such as Divine Favor.  You are requiring us to ignore far too much evidence by suggesting than an evil character would never keep an intelligent creature as a pet.
#42 RCanine Mar 06, 2015 9:08:52	texassnowman wrote:
#43 Noctaem Mar 06, 2015 11:55:47	Wowzers, I've rarely seen someone post so many incorrect statements about one subject in a single thread!  Texas, buddy, read the damn rules before you start spouting about being right while others who have actually read the source material are explaining calmly why you're wrong.  Just blindly claiming you're right and not reading...  I mean damn dude...  What a train wreck lol.  At least you're relenting and actually allowing yourself to learn from others!
#44 Ahglock Mar 06, 2015 20:50:38	So a question came up in my game last weekend. Who runs barter town?