Can Dex-attack wild shapes sneak attack? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 1eejit Sep 05, 2014 2:06:12	Assume a Druid dips a couple of levels in Rogue (Cunning Action is awesome for wild shapes). Can dexterity-attacking animals get sneak attack damage? Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.
#2 danyc Sep 05, 2014 3:15:20	By RAW, no, at least not unless the MM adds some more laguage to creature attack definitions. It specifically references the finesse keyword and no creature has that for its attacks. At a table? It's probably not broken to allow it (and I say this working on some spreadsheets for Wild Shape DPR). Moon Druids do very powerful damage early on, but they fall off very quickly at upper levels. Also, despite the sole advantage of Wild Shape (over Polymorph) being that it lets you retain class features, there are actually, by RAW, very few class features the druid can actually use to any great effect (for damage increase, the major things you can use are: Barbarian rage, Champion 3 crit bonus, and the Savage Attacker feat, although Charger and Sentinel's extra attack potentially apply as well). Also, keep in mind that most of the 'best' Druid forms use strength (Bears, Earth Elemental, Giant Croc, etc) so you're sacrificing something already choosing a dex-based critter.
#3 Captain_Kobold Sep 05, 2014 3:14:55	Strictly RAW, no. Being able to use Dex on an attack doesn't mean that its finessable. Monks for example can't sneak attack on their unarmed strikes, even if they use dex to hit and damage. Its not an unreasonable houserule though. Personally I just remove the Finesse requirement for Sneak Attack though.
#4 1eejit Sep 05, 2014 3:19:40	There is no opportunity for the finesse keyword to apply however, as animal weapons don't appear in the equipment table. Monk unarmed strike does.
#5 Timborama Sep 05, 2014 6:37:10	Animal attacks do not have the "Finesse" keyword, which is the, well, key word in Sneak Attack phrasing. But you COULD use a ranged attack, if you find an animal with one... Talk to your DM though. If you're doing it for fun fluff and/or flavor, he may allow it, as certain kinds of cats have used Sneak Attack in 3.x and 4E. So he may rule it's totes okay in certain forms or with certain attacks of certain animals
(Reply to #5) 1eejit	Timborama wrote:
#7 Xaspian Sep 05, 2014 7:31:34	If they were finesse, it would be mentioned. They would have made "animal weapons" a thing and included them in the table, or it would be included in the stat blocks, or be mentioned in the druid write-up. Unless something says otherwise, they're just attacks that some monsters make, sometimes using different ability scores. There's nothing wrong with treating them differently in your home game, but there's nothing I can see in the rules to make them finesse weapons, or weapons at all.
#8 mellored Sep 05, 2014 7:34:09	Apes have ranged weapon attacks.
(Reply to #7) 1eejit	Xaspian wrote:
#10 Timborama Sep 05, 2014 8:37:51	1eejit wrote:
(Reply to #10) 1eejit	Timborama wrote:
#12 Captain_Kobold Sep 05, 2014 9:40:40	1eejit wrote:
(Reply to #12) 1eejit	Captain_Kobold wrote:
#14 Noctaem Sep 05, 2014 13:06:02	well 1eejit you're free to houserule it to work however you want. However in the realm of the rules themselves you can't add text or meaning to them. Stating that just because it doesn't say you can't, you can is actually a logical fallacy. For the claw and bite attacks to be able to use sneak attack you would need them to have the finesse keyword, they don't so you can't. Perhaps they will eventually make a feat to allow it, but for now the answer is no. And the Versatile property is NOT the same as the finesse property, both of those are unique properties that do different things. What certain monster stat blocks allow or do not allow is not equivalent to what is allowed for PC's to do. Often you have unique language and abilities in monster stat blocks that PC's never get access to.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

1eejit

Sep 05, 2014 2:06:12

Assume a Druid dips a couple of levels in Rogue (Cunning Action is awesome for wild shapes).

Can dexterity-attacking animals get sneak attack damage?

Once per turn, you can
deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with
an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The
attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.

danyc

Sep 05, 2014 3:15:20

By RAW, no, at least not unless the MM adds some more laguage to creature attack definitions. It specifically references the finesse keyword and no creature has that for its attacks.

At a table? It's probably not broken to allow it (and I say this working on some spreadsheets for Wild Shape DPR). Moon Druids do very powerful damage early on, but they fall off very quickly at upper levels. Also, despite the sole advantage of Wild Shape (over Polymorph) being that it lets you retain class features, there are actually, by RAW, very few class features the druid can actually use to any great effect (for damage increase, the major things you can use are: Barbarian rage, Champion 3 crit bonus, and the Savage Attacker feat, although Charger and Sentinel's extra attack potentially apply as well). Also, keep in mind that most of the 'best' Druid forms use strength (Bears, Earth Elemental, Giant Croc, etc) so you're sacrificing something already choosing a dex-based critter.

Captain_Kobold

Sep 05, 2014 3:14:55

Strictly RAW, no. Being able to use Dex on an attack doesn't mean that its finessable. Monks for example can't sneak attack on their unarmed strikes, even if they use dex to hit and damage.

Its not an unreasonable houserule though. Personally I just remove the Finesse requirement for Sneak Attack though.

1eejit

Sep 05, 2014 3:19:40

There is no opportunity for the finesse keyword to apply however, as animal weapons don't appear in the equipment table. Monk unarmed strike does.

Timborama

Sep 05, 2014 6:37:10

Animal attacks do not have the "Finesse" keyword, which is the, well, key word in Sneak Attack phrasing. But you COULD use a ranged attack, if you find an animal with one...

Talk to your DM though. If you're doing it for fun fluff and/or flavor, he may allow it, as certain kinds of cats have used Sneak Attack in 3.x and 4E. So he may rule it's totes okay in certain forms or with certain attacks of certain animals

(Reply to #5)

1eejit

Timborama wrote:

Xaspian

Sep 05, 2014 7:31:34

If they were finesse, it would be mentioned. They would have made "animal weapons" a thing and included them in the table, or it would be included in the stat blocks, or be mentioned in the druid write-up.

Unless something says otherwise, they're just attacks that some monsters make, sometimes using different ability scores.

There's nothing wrong with treating them differently in your home game, but there's nothing I can see in the rules to make them finesse weapons, or weapons at all.

mellored

Sep 05, 2014 7:34:09

Apes have ranged weapon attacks.

(Reply to #7)

1eejit

Xaspian wrote:

#10

Timborama

Sep 05, 2014 8:37:51

1eejit wrote:

(Reply to #10)

1eejit

Timborama wrote:

#12

Captain_Kobold

Sep 05, 2014 9:40:40

1eejit wrote:

(Reply to #12)

1eejit

Captain_Kobold wrote:

#14

Noctaem

Sep 05, 2014 13:06:02

well 1eejit you're free to houserule it to work however you want. However in the realm of the rules themselves you can't add text or meaning to them. Stating that just because it doesn't say you can't, you can is actually a logical fallacy. For the claw and bite attacks to be able to use sneak attack you would need them to have the finesse keyword, they don't so you can't. Perhaps they will eventually make a feat to allow it, but for now the answer is no. And the Versatile property is NOT the same as the finesse property, both of those are unique properties that do different things. What certain monster stat blocks allow or do not allow is not equivalent to what is allowed for PC's to do. Often you have unique language and abilities in monster stat blocks that PC's never get access to.