Hi,
I've seen this ruling mentioned a few times and it has always made me curious.... did this get stated on twitter?
Beyond that, I personally don't agree. It seems counter-intuitive that a wizard-1/fighter-19 would continue to develop magical ability with every fighter level.... just as it seems counter-intuitave in general that character level will affect some class specific features at all.
Without getting into a war of words, could someone explain the reasoning behind cantrips scaling with character level? And perhaps the reasoning that character levell would affect any class specific feature? Maybe I'm missing something...
Thanks,
Neil
Cantrips scale with your total level because there are numerous ways that they can be gained, even from races, and it is the description of the cantrip itself that states the increase in potency - and nothing contradicts that increase in any of the cases where the cantrip is gained outside of as a class feature.
Example: The high elf subrace doesn't have a clause stated that if you take a damage dealing cantrip that it doesn't increase its damage as advertised.
And yes, the developers have clarified that this is the case via twitter.
The reasoning is that, if they didn't scale with character level, then multiclassing would almost always be detrimental to the character's overall strength. The designers want multiclassing to be a viable option for most characters, so they allowed certain options to scale with character level (proficiency bonus, cantrips, etc).
Think of cantrips getting better because you've gotten better at casting them (though extreme repetition) rather than getting better because you expend more energy/spirit/mana/whatever a spell slot represents for you.
It doesn't make a ton of sense for a fighter of 19 levels to take 1 level of Wizard and immediately get 4d10 on their Fire Bolt cantrip. But after he's been 19 fighter/1 wizard for a long time, and cast Firebolt a hundred times, it makes sense. You could always say every week/month/arbitrary time frame he adds another 1d10 onto his Firebolt capping at 4, but rules as written it is 4d10 immediately.
Hi,
Thanks for the responses. You've all convinced me about cantrips. 
I found the page where the tweets are aggregated. And there was a tweet clarifying that warlock invocations are actually tied to warlock level, ,and not class level I've seen quite a few rulings to the contrary, but I agree with that they should be tied to warlock level.
Thanks,
Neil
Personally, I don't like the justifications I've heard, both from other players and the devs themselves, and houserule that it's based on the caster class level. High Elf and Magic Initiate cantrips are stuck at level 1. This is just what makes sense to me, viability of multiclassing be damned.
Nevvur wrote:
Nevvur wrote:
I feel the power of the cantrip should increase with the caster's practice and mastery of magic as represented by his caster level, not based on his overall worldliness, or character level. Like weight lifting, If all you ever do is curl a five pound dumbell, you're not going to get any stronger. Another part of my reasoning is grounded in the metaphysics of magic in my homebrew setting. Here, cantrips are not relatively simple spells mastered by rote, but actually complex spells (on par with level 1 at least) for which the caster has discovered a natural affinity.
I'm all ears if an argument can be made that goes beyond making multiclass more viable, though I don't think my limitations on cantrips alone make MC casters an unattractive option, if that's the flavor of character a player really wants.
If you go with the reasoning that the cantrip increases due to repetition, you could (homebrew) go with how many levels you've possesed the cantrip. So whenever you gain the cantrip, you start casting it at 1st level, and it increases from then on. A 10th level High Elf has had it for all 10 levels b/c of the race feature, so casts at 10th level. A multiclass Fighter9/Wizard1 could be casting anywhere from level1-10 depending on when that level of Wizard was taken.
BlinkBlink wrote:
neilselden wrote:
View a cantrip as getting better because the caster aims the Fire Bolt better, not because there is more magic fed into the Fire Bolt.
Honestly it's such a silly thing to be a stickler about.
I don't like Cantrips scaling at all; I see Cantrips as spells that have very little magical energy put into them (or very little magical energy manipulated to obtain their effect); just as higher level spells are using more magical energy, to obtain their effect. So, I think the only way a Cantrip should scale, is if it is cast using a higher level spell slot.
I'm fine with Cantrips scaling. Because otherwise you get into the age old "I fire a crossbow and miss" situation when you run out of spells, and that loses its fun real quick (and in 3.x I just gave casters 3rd level magic missile wands for such occasions). This helps make spellcasters that aren't Warlocks feel non-useless after a long day.
Timborama wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
So if a cantrip only can scale by your caster level, what do you use for a High Elf fighter? He still gets a cantrip, but his caster level is zero. Remember the High Elf, as a race trait, gets "Cantrip. You know one cantrip of your choice from the wizard spell list. Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for it." So do thy get a cantrip *only* if they have a wizard level? If not, then the power of that cantrip seems to stem from ore then a class level.
Just a thought. 
No, but these cases are the exception to the rule. Specific case vs. general rule. Racial cantrips are always cast at base power.
dafrca wrote:
cowleymen wrote:
Nevvur wrote:
Timborama wrote:
There needs to be an official ruling or some form of official documentation regarding this. While home campaigns can just be a straight DME call, this should not be the case for organized play in the Adventurers League. Discussions like these will just cause tables to run longer and excessive amounts of butt hurt passed around when some cheese weasel gets their uber build nerfed because of their cantrip dependance.
Hibiki54 wrote:
EzechielDantan wrote:
RCanine wrote:
Though not an official document, you'd be wise to trust the lead designer that even Mearls defers to on rules questions:
I'd expect it to be codified in the first errata.
durntaur wrote:
The only thing that I don't care for regarding cantrip damage, and it's a small thing, is that cantrips more or less make 1st level damage dealing spells cast at their own level pretty pointless. I suppose there's always the arguement for something like magic missile when you need to be able to hit unerringly, or the target's AC is through the roof, or you need to divide the damage between seperate targets, but these are all very situational cases.
Huntsman57 wrote:
Huntsman57 wrote:
taycrens wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Random question. Does every Cantrip level up per level, or just some that say so?
e.g.: Eldritch Blast. At 2nd Level, is it 2d10, or still 1d10? It gives details about how many beams there are per certian level, but nothing about damage dealt other than the 1d10 in the descriptor. Whereas Acid Splash, specifically says the damage doesn't increase until certian levels.
Is there a list on which ones go up per level, and which ones have specific descriptions doing so?
Synjin wrote:
Ohhhhhhhhhhh......ok ok ok. I think I'm tracking. So none of them actually scale per-level. You're saying that you take your total character level when following those guidelines? So a Fighter4/Warlock1 using EB would get the extra beam because he's a 5th level PC. I get it now.
So I was looking at this and realized that only casters get this. A melee char gets "scaled attacks" via the Extra Attack class feature. An MC Fighter/Wizard scales his at-will wizard powers, but not his at-will fighter powers. Is this right?
Alficles wrote:
Alficles wrote:
"At-will fighter powers" equals attacking with their weapon however many times they are allowed to do so. This is the analogue and it does exist.
Ok so here are the issues I see with this ruling:
In order for Physical combat classes to get their extra attacks you have to have that many levels in that class.
Example 5 levels of Fighter... (This is off memory so bare with me I dont have my book in front of me)
So if you take levels of wizard and get Mage Hand Firebolt and Shocking Grasp, there is no reason these powers should scale without levels in the appropriate class.
Now just using everyone's example of Firebolt and 1 level wizard.
Now this fighter effectively has a stronger version of a Longbow for up to 120 ft.
I see no reason it should scale more without them having to invest more levels in the appropriate class.
REECY wrote:
1dX+1 is worth 1d(X+2), only not as spikey. Therefore if you character has even a +1 to their attack stat, their spell has to be at least 1 die size higher than their weapon in order to compete.
Yunru wrote:
correct
4d10+4*Cha Mod (5) VS 4d8+4*Dex5
22+20 VS 28
without hex or quicken from sorc 18 and Warlock 2
Dude.... thread is 6 months old!!!