So looking at their lvl 3 ablities these seem like really mismatched options.
The Champion get to roll their damage dice 5% more often (which is more frequently then in previous editions when advantage is considered) than the Battlemaster. However, the battlemaster can add 1d8 plus a rider to four attacks per encounter. A long sword or long bow weilding Champion would need to roll a d20 80 times (slightly less if it had heavy weapons) in an encounter to come up with a roughly comprable damage output from their class feature.
To add insult to injury the Battlemaster gets proficiency in an artisan tool kit.
This seems really unbalanced to me.
Am I missing something?
Yes. You are missing the hour long short rest mechanic. Maneuvers are necessarily refilled every encounter.
eh, in a math game sure, play battlemaster, in a role game, play what makes sense for your character and have a little trust the gm wont min/max you to death with monsters.
also i like extra crit chance in theme of a better hunter type fighter, then i do having 4+ special powers with the die.
also i think the lvl 7 power will not be used often for the battlemaster, or at least very situational, but the lvl 7 champion power i feel would be very usefull.
Adding sneak attack to the champion might make things worthwhile, given that assassinate only gets you auto-crits on the surprise round.
I still think, though, the effects from BM's maneuvers are far more interesting than only dealing top damage.
Keep in mind that the Battlemaster could also use his dice to make reaction attacks on enemies that miss him, which increases their effect even more.
Loren52 wrote:
silentdante wrote:
Polaris wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
Battle master gets his superiority dice back after a rest, but a short rest is now at least 1 HOUR. So basically you get your 4 dice once every trip into a dungeon or hostile area. If your DM lets you rest all the time in hostile territory for 1 hour at a time than you must play a battle master.
Also let me know when I can join your game....
If you want to compare at level 20, remember also a Champion will be making 15+ attacks per encounter. Four base attacks plus a bonus or reaction is 5 per turn, plus action surge for 4 more. A 4-5 round battle could be 24 to 29 attacks per encounter. At that level your critical is 18-20, %15. That would average out to about 4 crits per encounter.
The he champion has other latent effects that all help out in long run also, most likely the second style will be defensive, so you end up with better defense over the course of your career.
I think they are pretty balanced, as long as your DM doesn't white wash over the rest rules. The short rest rule us a very balancing factor in the game for many things.
Thought a lot about these today.
The fighter class... with feats and powers... is pretty clean, even without subclass bonuses.
So that being said, you could have nearly identical feat/weapon combos between both mentioned subclasses.
Right now, I am of course in love with Sentinal feat and Ripost maneuver. You can still have th extra attack from weapon master... but i fully expect to expend my 4 dice to get 4 extra attacks... creating an annoying greatsword Sentinal who forces mobs to attack him or get attacked by him.... and if they miss him they get attacked by him...
Frankly... an extra 5% crit is cool, because its an extra attack with weapon master... but its too rare for my taste. I static bonuses tend to have too little interaction for my taste.
Also, the maneuver to give an ally advantage on their next attack isnt horrible because its automatic(no save) and its "attack". Which means spell with attack roll, ranged or melee sneak attack...
Interacting with other character mechanics and combo/playing off eachother is very important to me.
Polaris wrote:
Except it seems unlikely that a champion would be taking rogue levels. To be sure he could, but I don't think that will be normal esp given the limitations of the sorts of weapons that CAN sneak attack.
So we have to look at what the two fighter sub-classes give:
Champion:
Level 3: Improved Critical (19 or 20). We will assume that a natural 19 hits [which will almost always be the case]. This amounts to an increase of 0.05*[Average Rolled Damage only] per attack. However this increase applies to all weapon attacks. So while it's not a lot, it always works.
Level 7: The 1/2 bonus applies to *all* abiity checks involving Str, Dex, or Con where you don't already have proficience (read Dex saves), and IMX and IMHO there are enough of these checks that you can expect this to come up fairly often.
Level 10: Extra Fighting Style. Do I have to explain why this is always useful and always good?
Level 15: Improved Critical (18-20): This is the same improvement we got at level three.
Level 18: Survivor. Gain 5+Con Mod hit points at the start of your turn (if less than half hits). Essentially you are a troll because the only way this stops is to knock you out to 0 hps (or heal you to above half). Do I have to explain why this is always good?
What I am seeing here is a steady progression in the sub-class tht encourages the player to stick with it but each individual step isn't all that.
Now let's look at Battle Master:
Level 3: Gain 3 Manuevers and 4 Maneuver Dice (d8s) that refresh after a short rest. You also gain proficiency with artisan's tools.
[Mind you none of the Manuevers are limited by level so you can pick the best three at third level.]
Level 7: Gain 2 manuevers, 1 manuever dice, "Know your enemy" ability
Level 10: Gain 2 manuevers, increase maneuver dice to d10
Level 15: Gain 2 maneuvers, 1 manuever dice, "Relentless" (gain one manuever dice per encounter if you don't have one when init is rolled)
Level 18: Increase Maneuver dice to d12.
So let's look at this. Third level for the Battlemaster is amazing, You get to pick the three very best manuevers for you, and you have four opportunities to use them between short rests...and the dice adds 4.5 points of damage on most successful maneuvers. The Artisan tools aren't anything much, but you get the maneuvers you will use the most frequently for the rest of your career...and you get the biggest one-time boost in your maneuver dice.
Now look at the rest of it. Sure evetually you get 6 more maneuvers but they decrease in utility with each choice (since you've already picked the best). Furthermore, your increase in the number of maneuvers is anemic at best (you are better off finding better ways to short rest honestly), and the increase in the value of the maneuver dice is even more so. Most people grossly overestimate the impact of having a d10 or d12 vice a d8. The fact is a d10 is only +1 damage on average over a d8 and a d12 is only +2 damage on average over a d8...i.e. not that much.
When you compare what the Battlemaster gets from levels 7-18 vice the Champion but to be honest if you look at level 3 it's no contest the other way which is why I call the Battlemaster frontloaded.
-Polaris
Polaris wrote:
Polaris wrote:
Also, survivor cannot be a backloaded feature if relentless cannot. It's even a higher level that most groups won't get to. 
Ashrym wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
Polaris wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
Polaris wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
Polaris wrote:
Polaris wrote:
It's not a fallacy. It's simple logic. Let's take a set of 16 objects. Show them to a person and ask that person to rank those objects from 1-16 from the object they like/value the most to the one they value the least.
OK, once that's done we can take an average of the valuation of the entire set as well as noting the value of the most and least ranked item.
Please note that I am making no assumptions about the nature of the valuation, how the items are valued, or the nature of the items. The only think I am assuming is that a person will value some items more than others (and this is a very reasonable assumption).
Now you tell this same person that he can pick three items of his choice. Any three.
Obviously the person will pick the three most valuable items because he already determined that these were the items he wanted the most! When the top three valuable items are taken, the average value of the items left will fall because the items above the median (9th place) have been taken. That means any item taken in the future will be less valueable then the items already taken!
When you continue to iterate that over future choices, we clearly find that each choice past the first three has decreasing value regardless of how that individual player valued the items.
Like I said before, it's simple logic.
-Polaris
i think something that gets missed is that with every dragon or dungeon article that will come out with manuevers and a fighter book that comes out with manuevers makes the battlemaster stronger. the only feature the champion has that will have a power creep is the second fighting style which is nice but not game changing.
Polaris wrote:
Man someone post a few examples (more than 3 of course) so I can settle this for you both! 
Ashrym wrote:
carnage221 wrote:
The battle master all is about utility and being able to adapt and handle any situation..... I rather like the infinate combos you can come up with while interacting with your party. Granted there are probably some crap manuevers but the more you have, the better you will be able to adapt to the situation. The Champion feels like a stripped down fighter or a tamed barbarian..... thats not a bad thing.......just not my first choice 
Tactical use of Commander's Strike with heavy hitting party members who are otherwise action economy limited can yield pretty massive damage that outstrips anything a champion can do. Giving a rogue a second sneak attack or a paladin an extra smite is pretty amazing.
Polaris wrote:
can we also acknowledge that if you use your superiority dice for a maneuver, and the attack misses (for some of them), you lose the superiority dice and nothing happens, where as with champion if you roll a crit, it's always a crit no matter of you run out of superiority dice or not? how many battles can we agree happen before an average DM would allow a short rest to go off without a hitch? 3? 5? because once you used up your 4 dice at 3rd level your kinda just a regular fighter with no powers now, where as the champion retains his powers no matter, albeit a less percentage to happen power. and since i am a fan of randomness and chaos i might crit 2 times a battle, at 19-20 randomness, so after 3 battles i have now done 2 more then the 4 allowed superiority dice. the difference is champion is always damage, where battlemaster has other effects not just dice. hypotheticals are to much in a vacuum to be able to compare these two subclasses because we have no clue how many short rests, rounds, battles, and all of that will happen in a given adventure day.
lets look at how good the maneuvers are though:
commander's strike: if they miss, you lost the dice
dissarming attack: you will always get the bonus damage, they only save VS dropping
distracting strike: you always get the extra damage, and grants advantage for next attack (so this one is pretty good)
evasive footwork: you get bonus AC, but honestly the DM will probly just attack someone else, though that is up to uncertainty, but it doesnt help the warrior do more unless you play very tactically which i suppose is what the battlemaster is trying to pull off, situation and up to the player how much thats worth.
feinting attack: you can get advantage on an attack, but if you still miss you lose the die nothing happens. otherwise add;s to damage, and has to be 5'
goading attack: die added to damage and now you are the "threat" though why wouldnt the thing just keep attcking you.
lunging attack: add's 5' to attack, but if you miss, die is lost
manuveuring attack: you will get the damage die, and a buddy can half-move
menacing attack: you will get the damage die, and if they save, no fear.
parry: you take less damage per supdie roll, so 1-8 at 3rd lvl + dex bonus
pushing attack: you will get damage die, and on save nothing happens
rally: a buddy gets tougher temperarily for 1-8 at 3rd lvl +cha bonus
riposte: if you are missed, you will lose die if you miss back
sweeping attack: can hot a diff enemy if your origional roll to hit would hit it, the new enemy takes 1-8 at 3rd lvl
trip attack: you will get damage die, if they save nothing happens.
so looking at it quite a few of the powers will still garuntee 1-8 extra damage because they say you already hit, while some of them you can miss and possibly lose the duperiority die.
i am of the mind that the champion and the battlemaster are pretty close, the factors that would change that is how often you can short rest, and which maneuvers you choose. if your trying to make a min/max or badbutt guy, battlemaster is probly not wha you should make anyway. unless like was said earlier, you are getting a short rest often.
silentdante wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
silentdante wrote:
Siderealmotion wrote:
1eejit wrote:
carnage221 wrote:
Loren52 wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
I hope they plan to release more maneuvers, just like spells, and in that sense I find the champion too static in relation to the abilities present. It will also be interesting to see how feats overall increase the chance to use a critical hit (spells or attacks) and how that further diminishes the champions features.
I don't understand why they did not use maneuvers as a staple for martial classes, since other classes get features of the basic fighter as well when considering fighting styles.
Uchawi wrote:
mellored wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
Just did the math!
Here are the assumptions. A typical day is 16 rounds of combat. A party gets a single short rest each day. Both fighters are using a greatsword. The battlemaster is only using maneuvers that increase damage directly (ie not ones that give him a bonus to attack or advantage etc). I measured using a range of accuracies from 50% to 75% and for levels 5, 11, 17, and 20. The results?
The battlemaster deals better damage than the champion across all levels!
Even if there is no opportunity for a short rest, the battlemaster still pulls ahead. The more short rests you have, the better the battlemaster does. The damage increase from using maneuvers is fairly consistent at around 9% - 12% for all levels 5+. At level 3 and 4, the damage boost from maneuvers is actually closer to 20 to 25% because the fighter has not received their second attack.
Also interesting to note is how infrequently maneuvers are used. At level 11, you will use a maneuver on only 18.5% of your attacks. At level 20 you will only use maneuvers on 17.5% of your attacks. Despite this, at level 15+, you could theoretically use a single maneuver almost every round of combat. Of course, spending multiple dice in the same round is generally better than spreading your dice out. Burst is king in D&D, but that makes the battlemaster very boring to play (you could theoretically spend all your dice in a single round).
Polaris wrote:
Lawolf wrote:
Lucas_Blackstone wrote:
Loren52 wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
Champion is viable. I'd never play one, but a second fighting style, Natural Athlete and Survivor are all solid, and the raw damage difference vs. the Battle Master isn't a complete chasm.
I do not know about the math I have seen.
At 5th level, the BattleMaster gets 4 dice, d8. Thats 18 points of damage, no wasted dice. Assuming a 4 round encounter, a Fighter should be doing 3 attacks per round, or 12 attacks per encounter. Thats 48 attacks, action surge somewhere, for an even 50. Thats 2.5 extra crits from critting on a 19. I will use the 2d6 with GWF Style, that should make the average damage per attack 8.24, as a d6 with one reroll of a 1 or 2 averages out to 4.12 (I got 4.12 mellored, not 4.16, can you check for me?) , up from 3.5. Add it up, and 8.24*2.5= 20.6 average extra damage from extra crits. Of course this assume everything goes right for both. The Champion is ahead. Of course the Champion might only get only get 40 attacks in, thats 2 extra crits, or 16.48 axtra damage. Both character will hit at the same rate, but the crit extra damage is guanteed in a sense, you can miss with a crit die.
A ten round workday is very short, thats really an unfair comparison. 16 rounds is actually short also, people will not be short resting as much. At early levels the Healer feat with a med kit is free healing, every group should have someone with that by 4th level. Groups leaving dungeons to short rest and come back just SCREAMS for the DM to trap and ambush you.
This advantage will grow for the Champion, as his extra attacks, especially through additional surges, and extra crit rate grow faster then the BM dice and dice size. It also grows because as your character levels up your will squeeze more rounds and encounters in to a "work day" due to improved healing and base hit points and general survivablility. It will also grow if you somehow get more actions through something, you had better be using those for attacks or you are doing it wrong. The BM dice are limited, and when you get high enough you have to blow them early to get extra dice. At high levels a Champion will be attacking 5 times per round, without action surges, thats 80 attacks with surges, 92 if you throw in surges, at a crit rate of %10, thats 9.2 extra crits if everything goes right.
The Champion gets other silent beneficial abilities, all of which are pretty good, the rest of the BM is blah.
Really, it all depends on your DM and how your group structures adventures and takes short rests. The balance between them is close enough.
I do not think the BM is very tactical at all, there are 2-3 powers there that you just use right away, as soon as you can, to make sure you get them in. I can tell you right now how it will play out, the player will blow all the dice in the first encounter and be stuck with nothing, or they will save them and then have some left over because the workday ended sooner than they thought. The Champion has to make sure he is always in position to attack constantly, his ability is based on volume. Thats does require some planning, to always keep your weapon in play.
.
smbakeresq wrote:
smbakeresq wrote:
It seems like they are close enough.
There are just some people who want simple fighter. They will be best served by the champion.
The battlemaster is complex. It gives a player tons of choices. For some players, making different choices is thrilling even when a choice isn't optimized.
I like how 5e gives players choices that can be interesting even if they are not optimized.
Someone mentioned an archer fighter, they kind of got left in the cold also. They can use longbows, which does more damage and higher range, but thats blah. If they had a bow with a d10, sure, or different types of arrows, ok. The fighter will get more feats to buff him up, but thats later. +2 to hit is nice, but with bounded accuracy its not really enough to make you say ahhh, it shoudl ahve been +2 to hit and damage, thats something to look at. This allows you to get a feat early, you dont need the ability bump right away. The Ranger is a funner in every way, as is the rogue.
The fighter will get more attacks that will out strip the rogue, and higher crit rate when they take champion, which you should as a fighter archer, but that isnt exciting right off the bat.
smbakeresq wrote:
Another side note, and I wil repost seperately, is the reroll of of Great Weapon Master. Its easier and almost the same to just turn the 1 roll into max damage, like the 4e rage ability. For example
D6 reroll average - 4.16
d6 1 is 6 avg - 4.33
d10 reroll average - 6.3
d10 use 1 as 10 - 6.4
d12 reroll avg - 7.33
d12 1 is 12 - 7.41
Ok, your players get a little more dmg, but no re-rolls, saving time. Its easier and faster. They get the excitment of utter fail turning to joy. The table gets to just see the one roll and dont have to wait.
Its the same and people just like it better. The rule should have been just written that way.
People like to see dice thrown, but not dice re-rolls that can end up in failure or change nothing.
smbakeresq wrote:
smbakeresq wrote:
silentdante wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
So what are the three must take actions? It looks to me like most of them have value and their usefulness is very situational.
I would say the following are all very valuable.
Commanders strike
Distracting strike
feinting attack
Goading attack
Menacing attack
Pushing attack
ripost
trip attack....
could be useful:
Diarming attack
Precision attack
rally
seems like there are some really good choices that help flavor your role.
Im playing a protective tank and and can see a lot of of good things to take that would help me in that role.
IMO champion looks far more front loaded then battlemaster.
From the grave I summon thee oh anchient thread. Rise rise and bring fear into the hearts of my enemies.......... Sorry about the necromancy =-)