Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Khoalabear Aug 16, 2014 14:33:53	In a conversation with some players, they asked me why you would choose one weapon over the another other than for flavor. I thought about having the classes deal damage based on their class's Hit Dice. So Fighters deal d10, Rogues and Clerics deal d8 and Wizards deal d6 for any weapon they use. It removes alot of the gear porn in the game and helps people play their class the way they want.   I'd probably add some rules like using a two-handed melee weapon increases the damage by one damage die and using an off-hand weapon lets you have a second attack, but it decreases the damage die of that second attack by one.   What do you guys think? UPDATE Thank you for all the replies, it certainly helps when ideas are tested in the fires of criticism, now I had a chance to tweak the house rule a bit.   First off, warriors(Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian, etc) recieve a d10, experts(Rogue, Bard, etc) recieve a d8, magic users(Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric etc) recieve a d6.   Polearms, Two-handed weapons, or any weapon that can reasonably have the "Heavy" special rule, bump up the damage dice by one step. Warriors - d12, Experts - d10, Magic Users - d8. They always require strength to use. example of weapons: Greatsword, Longsword w/ 2h, Halberds   Having a single-handed weapon, or using a single-handed weapon with a shield lets you use either your dexterity or your strength whichever you prefer and you simply use your unmodified damage dice example, longsword w/ shield, rapier, dagger, club   Duel-wielding weapons allows you to use either dexterity or strength and you reduce the damage dice one step.  Warriors - d8, Experts - d6, Magic Users - d4 example, duel wielding longswords, rapier and main gauche, duel daggers   Ranged weapons simply use the base damage dice, if you duel-wield ranged weapons like hand crossbows you simply reduce the damage dice one step like the melee weapons.   When you multiclass, you just take the larger damage dice of the two or more classes. This will probably encourage level diping, but I don't really care if my players do.   As for weapons with more utility, it doesn't really matter all that much to me if my players can reasonably explain and try hard to make it work. Want to throw your sword? **** yeah, cause thats' awesome! You want to hide your spear on your person somehow? Custom spear specially made to be disassembled for concealed carry? Sure, but you'll have to take an action to reassemble it when you get in a fight.   The main goal of this is to allow my players the ability to play their character as close as possible to how they imagined  them without too having to compromise or be forced to take a more optimal/sub-optimal choice.   Thats it for now. DISCUSS!!!
#2 Ashrym Aug 16, 2014 14:45:47	Well, fighting styles and some class features already promote some weapon variety. Proficiency and ability scores can also force or promote different weapons. Changing actual damage based on class doesn't seem to promote any functional variety like we currently have and takes away variety from existing mechanics. It also possibly complicates multiclassing or melee style subclasses versus caster style subclasses. All you seem to be doing is making the only difference is flavor more true. What is your desired outcome?
#3 shivafang Aug 16, 2014 14:55:12	The thing with having fighters deal d10 is a little iffy, as it leaves out the possibility of a fighter with a great weapon and the dual-wielder.  Why is a fighter with a great axe having a smaller die than a barbarian (the barbarian has class features that add to damage.)   You suggested using a two-handed melee weapon increases the die.  What does d12 go to?  d20?  If the barbarian uses a one-handed weapon and a shield, is it still a d12?  Or does the rule simply not apply to barbarians because you forgot their hit dice was a d12?     Are you going to let rogues sneak attack with their d8 weapons, and dual wield them without the Dual Wielder feat?  (Normally a dual-wielder gets two 1d6 weapons, your proposal would give them a 1d8 and a 1d6 - not broken, per se, just make sure you realise exactly what this changes.)   How does multiclassing work?
#4 Khoalabear Aug 16, 2014 14:59:06	Well, some of my players noted that certain weapons like the Greatsword are just straight up better than everything and unless you are using a shield should always have one even though he wants to play a fencer with a rapier. A rogue wants to use a dagger since it fits his character, but a rapier is a far better weapon. Having class based damage simply allows them to use the weapons they want wthout making them feel like they made a bad decision.
#5 RedSiegfried Aug 16, 2014 15:04:20	This concept is used to great effect in a game like 13th Age.  The game is designed in such a way that the particular mundane gear you choose isn't important and you can reflavor it however you like, but instead more importance is placed on the uniqueness and rarity of magic items.  It probably wouldn't work well in this version of D&D, for the reasons explained above.   Come to think of it, this idea is a lot how 4e Gamma World worked.  Your damage was just based on general weapon type and you could call it whatever you wanted (a stopsign, a parking meter, a steel girder, a bowling ball on a chain) and instead mutations and omega tech were much more interesting and exciting.
#6 RedSiegfried Aug 16, 2014 15:11:39	Khoalabear wrote:
#7 silentdante Aug 16, 2014 15:11:55	Khoalabear wrote:
#8 Khoalabear Aug 16, 2014 15:14:40	Yeah, sneak atttacks happen with any weapons that can use dexterity. About half of them really like combat, but everyone is into Rping.
(Reply to #5) Khoalabear	RedSiegfried wrote:
#10 Captain_Kobold Aug 16, 2014 15:32:51	Khoalabear wrote:
(Reply to #8) silentdante	Khoalabear wrote:
#12 RCanine Aug 16, 2014 15:38:31	The weapon table is one of the few poorly-designed parts of the PHB, so house rules are a good idea, imho. The challenge you'll run into is balancing weapons with additional utility (thrown, reach, etc)
#13 Ashrym Aug 16, 2014 15:39:52	A rogue with a dagger can also use it at range, TWF with 2 dangers that can also be easily concealed. That was the main draw for them in the first place. If they all enjoy RP then play more city / intrigue styles and enforce laws regarding carrying weapons in public.
#14 shivafang Aug 16, 2014 15:43:32	Khoalabear wrote:
#15 mellored Aug 16, 2014 17:24:30	There are a few weapons that are off, like greataxes, but most have specific benifits. Otherwise, +1 to reflavor.   I mean, what is a short sword, other then a slightly longer dagger you can't throw.
#16 Bupp Aug 16, 2014 18:36:41	I used class based damage like in 13th Age during the playtest and everything worked fine.  In fact, I used 13th Age's AC by class as well, just reworked to fit into D&D rules.   Here's what I had for the core 4:  this is just copy and pasted from my write ups, it gives examples of weapons as well.   Cleric Melee Weapons* One-Handed                     Two-Handed Small 1d4 dagger                     1d6 club Light or Simple 1d6 mace, shortsword             1d8 spear Heavy or Martial 1d8 (–2 atk) longsword, warhammer        1d10 (–2 atk) greatsword, dire flail     Fighter Melee Weapons One-Handed                 Two-Handed Small 1d4 dagger                 1d6 club Light or Simple 1d6 shortsword, hand axe         1d8 spear Heavy or Martial 1d8 longsword, warhammer        1d10 greatsword, greataxe   Rogue Melee Weapons One-Handed                 Two-Handed Small 1d8 dagger                 1d6 club Light or Simple 1d8 shortsword, wicked knife     1d8 spear Heavy or Martial 1d8 (–2 atk) longsword, scimitar    1d10 (–2 atk) greatsword   Wizard Melee Weapons One-Handed                Two-Handed Small 1d4 dagger                 1d6 staff Light or Simple 1d6 (–2 atk) shortsword         1d8 (–2 atk) spear* Heavy or Martial 1d8 (–5 atk) longsword         1d10 (–5 atk) greatsword*
#17 RedSiegfried Aug 16, 2014 19:22:38	Watch out though, reflavoring will run afoul of the "disassociative mechanics" crowd.  ;)
#18 Theridion1 Aug 16, 2014 19:46:52	There is no harm in reflavoring. In 4e, we reflavored several races. Used all the stats/abilities of a race but called it another. We just stuck to the rules. If it was a warforged using the stats of a githyanki, he could still only take the original race feats to maintain balance as if he was that original race... just called a warforged at the table. For example... your world has no dwarfs, but someone wants to play a dwarf. Fine. Just give all dwarf stuff to a human. Or elf. Make it flavor and roleplay as being different or an oddball. I really dont think it is a problem unless someone says their d4 finesse dagger are light finesse clubs and tries to cast shilleleigh on them :)
(Reply to #4) Chaosmancer	Khoalabear wrote:
(Reply to #19) Khoalabear	Chaosmancer wrote:
(Reply to #18) Khoalabear	Theridion1 wrote:
(Reply to #16) Khoalabear	Bupp wrote:
(Reply to #13) Khoalabear	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #10) Khoalabear	Captain_Kobold wrote:
(Reply to #6) Khoalabear	RedSiegfried wrote:
(Reply to #3) Khoalabear	shivafang wrote:
(Reply to #2) Khoalabear	Ashrym wrote:
#28 Captain_Kobold Aug 20, 2014 13:16:45	Would you make any adjustments for other considerations? You seem to be doing this because a player wants the style and additional properties of one weapon, while still getting to roll the biggest damage dice possible.   Personally, while I don't agree that sneak attack should require a finesse weapon, and am a little fuzzy on finesse weapons in general, I think that the weapons table has a fairly good balance in terms of flexibility, versatility and damage.
(Reply to #28) Khoalabear	Captain_Kobold wrote:
#30 vodokar Aug 20, 2014 23:43:39	The difference in weapons or lack thereof has always been an issue in D&D.  The heart of the problem is that there are differences in real life weapons that just aren't able to be conveniently modeled in the game.  For example, why would you not take a greatsword?  It does more damage, right? But, it is a much slower and unweildy weapon.  The game just doesn't model this.  In 1e, there were rules for weapon speed, which attempted to address this, but I don't know anyone who actually used them, because it was not a very workable system.   Something I'm trying to puzzle out is if there is a way to impliment a weapon speed system that could be simple and easy to use without making largescale modifications to current gameplay.  I was thinking about something along the lines of assigning a bonus or penalty to weapons that added or subtracted to your initiative roll.  So, the two handed weapon fighter does more damage when he hits, but not only gives up the defensive benefit of not using a shield, but also is likely going to be attacking last.  On the other hand, that rogue with his dagger may be doing less damage, sneak attack notwithstanding, but almost always gets the first strike in with his light and quick weapon.  In the middle is the good old longsword, capable of being used one handed and a finely balanced weapon that neither benefits or penalizes your intitiative.  Possibly might work.   Even with the system as is though, I have managed to find uses for almost every weapon on the chart.  I even, finally, found a use for a spear.  It makes a tremendous monk weapon, capable of being used one handed or two or being thrown, uses dex for the monk instead of str and does as much or more than any other "monk weapon".
(Reply to #30) Captain_Kobold	vodokar wrote:
#32 h347h50 Aug 21, 2014 8:36:30	Captain_Kobold wrote:
(Reply to #31) vodokar	Captain_Kobold wrote:
#34 Captain_Kobold Aug 22, 2014 19:43:00	h347h50 wrote:
(Reply to #33) Khoalabear	vodokar wrote: