Cleric Guardian Spirits and "entering" the effect. - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Literalirony Mar 19, 2015 7:02:33	Hey there, pretty simple question- can you ram into people when you have Guardian Spirits up, causing them to take the damage, or does it have to take place on the monster's turn as they move into the effect or start their turn there?
#2 Macv12 Mar 19, 2015 7:44:03	Triggering on the start of their turn or when they enter it (voluntarily) keeps it from going off twice a round. There's no earthly reason that it's more damaging to run toward an enemy (trigger damage), wait for their turn (trigger damage), then run away from them and back (trigger damage again), etc.; as opposed to keeping them in the damaging effect continuously. Then there's the less interesting and much more pedantic argument about whether "enter" implies the target moving or not. If you houserule an "only triggers once per turn" restriction into the spell, then you can be more liberal with when something triggers and not worry about cheesing.
#3 Coredump00 Mar 19, 2015 9:26:45	Crawford is on record as saying it triggers in both situations. So you can move it to someoene and trigger the effect.
#4 Noctaem Mar 19, 2015 10:41:48	Coredump00 wrote:
(Reply to #4) AaronOfBarbaria	Noctaem wrote:
#6 RulesJD Mar 19, 2015 11:22:43	Noctaem wrote:
#7 Noctaem Mar 19, 2015 11:33:20	@ AaronOfBarbaria & RulesJD I don't see anything in that exchange that says that moving the area would immediately cause damage due to the "enter" clause. What I see, is a DM who thinks the spell is overpowered because of the amount of vaccuum scenario targets that "could" be hit by the spell and Jeremy Crawford saying, we haven't seen that kind of stuff in our playtest and so we don't think the spell is overpowered as is. The exchange basically does not touch on the following question: If you move the area of a spell so that a creature is now within it, does that count as the creature entering? I don't think it does and I don't see Jeremy Crawford saying it does either in the exchange. However, the creature would take damage at the start of its next turn. Also the enter the area part of the spell does not require voluntary movement. IE shoving a creature into the spell's area of effect works just as well though still only once per turn. Thoughts?
#8 mellored Mar 19, 2015 12:59:34	Noctaem wrote:
(Reply to #7) AaronOfBarbaria	Noctaem wrote:
#10 jaelis Mar 19, 2015 13:41:42	Yeah, it sounds to me like Crawford is saying that if you move up to an opponent, they take the damage.
(Reply to #4) Coredump00	Noctaem wrote:
(Reply to #8) Coredump00	mellored wrote:
#13 lawrencehoy Mar 19, 2015 21:04:22	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#14 slumgum Mar 20, 2015 1:36:40	Just my two cents, but I don't think you can passively enter something. It can be unwillful but the creature's body has to move into the Spirit Guardian area rather than the Spirit guardian area move onto a creature. Balance wise I don't think it really matters which way you rule it. But to me it just seems absurd to be able to deal MORE damage by moving out of range of the hostile creatures and then back in rnage, subjecting them to LESS time in contact with the spirits than if you had just stayed put. It's kind of immersion-breaking to use tactics like this, not that that matters to everyone.
#15 Bloodscythe Mar 20, 2015 5:07:55	I think entering doesn't require movement. Basically what Coredump says. If you aren't in a rainstorm, and the wind shifts, and now you are in a rainstorm, you have entered a rainstorm, and are getting rained on, whether you moved or not. You're now in the area of effect of the rain and suffer the consequences (getting drenched). Consider the mechanics if this weren't the case. If the rainstorm passes through your space too quickly so that this turn you aren't in the rain, and next turn you aren't in the rain, but during the interim, you are in the rain, do you stay dry? The same logic can apply to Spirit Guardian. You complete your turn outside of the AoE of the spell. The cleric moves closer to you and now you have entered the AoE of the spell. You are affected. The new round starts and you begin your turn in the AoE. You are affected. You can remain in the AoE or move. Do you want to stay in the rain or find shelter? Slumgum makes a good observation though regarding a cleric moving to deal more damage, but it's at most only 1 extra hit. Cleric casts spell. Spirit Guardians spring into being. Every creature affected (in the AoE) should take damage that turn. If you don't consider this entering the AoE, the cleric has to purposely cast the spell away from enemies then move toward them or has to cast the spell, move away from enemies, then move back toward them to deal damage. This seems silly. If you consider being in the AoE as having entered it, then a cleric can move around the field of battle on their turn to possibly deal damage with the spirit guardians, but only once per target since they can only take damage the first time they enter the AoE on the cleric's turn. Then if the cleric stays near the enemies, they would have to roll again at the beginning of their turn. Even with 2 hits from the spell to every target, the cleric is still only doing the damage a fireball spell does. I don't see an issue with "entering" when the cleric moves toward you.
#16 mellored Mar 20, 2015 5:17:48	Bloodscythe wrote:
#17 jaelis Mar 20, 2015 6:13:04	I think you have to imagine it as the spirits getting riled up whenever a new creature enters their presense. If it was meant to be just an environmental effect, I guess that it would only damage you if you started your turn in the area (or be limited to once per round.)
(Reply to #16) Macv12	mellored wrote:
#19 Coredump00 Mar 20, 2015 10:01:22	Which all lead back to Crawfords statement: They have not seen expoits like this actually happen, and they value 'actual' exploits more than 'potential' exploits. The 'once per round' restriction is what Calebrus was suggesting, but Crawford said it wasn't needed because they have not seen (or heard) it being a problem. Also, this way is simple... the conditions are all immediate and do not depend on anything else. The 'once per round' restriction requires you track which creatures have been in or just got in, or whatever. Not saying it is that difficult, but probably why they want to go with this method.
(Reply to #16) Coredump00	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #18) Coredump00	Macv12 wrote:
(Reply to #16) Bloodscythe	mellored wrote:
#23 mellored Mar 20, 2015 10:36:57	Coredump00 wrote:
#24 mellored Mar 20, 2015 10:41:30	Interestingly, this does create the possible exploit: Cleric casts spell on his turn and hits you with the spell. Cleric moves so you're out of the range of the AoE. Next turn, his ally carries/drags/pushes cleric closer to you, putting you back in range of the AoE and you take damage, then carries/drags/pushes cleric out of range. Next turn, another ally does the same. Next turn, another ally does the same. You only take damage each and every turn if on each and every turn you stop being in the AoE then are in it again.
#25 Jamwes Mar 20, 2015 10:45:03	Coredump00 wrote:
#26 jaelis Mar 20, 2015 10:49:44	Jamwes wrote:
(Reply to #24) Bloodscythe	mellored wrote:
#28 RulesJD Mar 20, 2015 12:03:35	1. You can only move at half speed while grappling someone. At best, they can move the Cleric 15ft forward and 15ft backwards. Extremely easy to avoid as a DM. 2. If the entire team is willing to work in such a cooperative matter, then let them. They are giving up all of their actions and movement just to work as a team. Then they all get fireballed anyways.
(Reply to #25) Coredump00	Jamwes wrote:
#30 curiousdragon Mar 20, 2015 17:05:32	FWIW, in 4E, enter was clearly defined as the target creature being moved (willfully or not) into a zone and not vice-versa. This is not RAW, but could be considered precedent.
#31 lawrencehoy Mar 22, 2015 19:52:02	I don't understand all the worry about the cleric running around on his turn; the targets only take damage once per turn. There has to be some other method of moving the target into the AoE on other turns (the cleric isn't going to be doing that without Readying his action, which he could have used to do damage otherwise). Other actions, on other turns, to move the target (or the cleric) are still using up resources that are trading damage for damage.
#32 leste_gr Apr 01, 2015 5:11:22	From the "Insect plague" description: " When the area appears, each creature in it must make a Constitution saving throw. A creature takes 4 d10 piercing damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. A creature must also make this saving throw when it enters the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or ends its turn there. " Notice how this one specifies explicitely that creatures in the area when it appears take damage right away? If Spirit Guardian was intended to cause damage twice or more per round just by moving the AoE then it would mean that either a) there is no reason for the explicit mention on insect plague above, or b)insect plague would deal its damage twice when cast (once for the explicit mention and once for the "also" clause) in addition to the end of the creatures' turn. I am also a bit confused by Mr Crawford's tweet but the PHB intention shows otherwise. Unless, this means that "Spirit Guardians" does not cause damage when cast (regardless of creatures in its area) but after that everything goes.
(Reply to #32) leste_gr	Additionally, the spell damage/area/effects do not add up when compared to other spells... Compare a 3rd level Spirit Guardian with a 3rd level flaming sphere, fireball or flame strike and you quickly find that it trumps all 3 in most circumstances (even though flame strike is 5th level on the same class spell list) leste_gr wrote:

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

Literalirony

Mar 19, 2015 7:02:33

Hey there, pretty simple question- can you ram into people when you have Guardian Spirits up, causing them to take the damage, or does it have to take place on the monster's turn as they move into the effect or start their turn there?

Macv12

Mar 19, 2015 7:44:03

Triggering on the start of their turn or when they enter it (voluntarily) keeps it from going off twice a round. There's no earthly reason that it's more damaging to run toward an enemy (trigger damage), wait for their turn (trigger damage), then run away from them and back (trigger damage again), etc.; as opposed to keeping them in the damaging effect continuously.

Then there's the less interesting and much more pedantic argument about whether "enter" implies the target moving or not.

If you houserule an "only triggers once per turn" restriction into the spell, then you can be more liberal with when something triggers and not worry about cheesing.

Coredump00

Mar 19, 2015 9:26:45

Crawford is on record as saying it triggers in both situations. So you can move it to someoene and trigger the effect.

Noctaem

Mar 19, 2015 10:41:48

Coredump00 wrote:

(Reply to #4)

AaronOfBarbaria

Noctaem wrote:

RulesJD

Mar 19, 2015 11:22:43

Noctaem wrote:

Noctaem

Mar 19, 2015 11:33:20

@ AaronOfBarbaria & RulesJD

I don't see anything in that exchange that says that moving the area would immediately cause damage due to the "enter" clause. What I see, is a DM who thinks the spell is overpowered because of the amount of vaccuum scenario targets that "could" be hit by the spell and Jeremy Crawford saying, we haven't seen that kind of stuff in our playtest and so we don't think the spell is overpowered as is.

The exchange basically does not touch on the following question: If you move the area of a spell so that a creature is now within it, does that count as the creature entering?

I don't think it does and I don't see Jeremy Crawford saying it does either in the exchange. However, the creature would take damage at the start of its next turn. Also the enter the area part of the spell does not require voluntary movement. IE shoving a creature into the spell's area of effect works just as well though still only once per turn.

Thoughts?

mellored

Mar 19, 2015 12:59:34

Noctaem wrote:

(Reply to #7)

AaronOfBarbaria

Noctaem wrote:

#10

jaelis

Mar 19, 2015 13:41:42

Yeah, it sounds to me like Crawford is saying that if you move up to an opponent, they take the damage.

(Reply to #4)

Coredump00

Noctaem wrote:

(Reply to #8)

Coredump00

mellored wrote:

#13

lawrencehoy

Mar 19, 2015 21:04:22

AaronOfBarbaria wrote:

#14

slumgum

Mar 20, 2015 1:36:40

Just my two cents, but I don't think you can passively enter something. It can be unwillful but the creature's body has to move into the Spirit Guardian area rather than the Spirit guardian area move onto a creature.

Balance wise I don't think it really matters which way you rule it. But to me it just seems absurd to be able to deal MORE damage by moving out of range of the hostile creatures and then back in rnage, subjecting them to LESS time in contact with the spirits than if you had just stayed put. It's kind of immersion-breaking to use tactics like this, not that that matters to everyone.

#15

Bloodscythe

Mar 20, 2015 5:07:55

I think entering doesn't require movement. Basically what Coredump says.

If you aren't in a rainstorm, and the wind shifts, and now you are in a rainstorm, you have entered a rainstorm, and are getting rained on, whether you moved or not. You're now in the area of effect of the rain and suffer the consequences (getting drenched).

Consider the mechanics if this weren't the case. If the rainstorm passes through your space too quickly so that this turn you aren't in the rain, and next turn you aren't in the rain, but during the interim, you are in the rain, do you stay dry?

The same logic can apply to Spirit Guardian.

You complete your turn outside of the AoE of the spell.

The cleric moves closer to you and now you have entered the AoE of the spell. You are affected.

The new round starts and you begin your turn in the AoE. You are affected. You can remain in the AoE or move. Do you want to stay in the rain or find shelter?

Slumgum makes a good observation though regarding a cleric moving to deal more damage, but it's at most only 1 extra hit.

Cleric casts spell. Spirit Guardians spring into being. Every creature affected (in the AoE) should take damage that turn. If you don't consider this entering the AoE, the cleric has to purposely cast the spell away from enemies then move toward them or has to cast the spell, move away from enemies, then move back toward them to deal damage. This seems silly.

If you consider being in the AoE as having entered it, then a cleric can move around the field of battle on their turn to possibly deal damage with the spirit guardians, but only once per target since they can only take damage the first time they enter the AoE on the cleric's turn. Then if the cleric stays near the enemies, they would have to roll again at the beginning of their turn.

Even with 2 hits from the spell to every target, the cleric is still only doing the damage a fireball spell does. I don't see an issue with "entering" when the cleric moves toward you.

#16

mellored

Mar 20, 2015 5:17:48

Bloodscythe wrote:

#17

jaelis

Mar 20, 2015 6:13:04

I think you have to imagine it as the spirits getting riled up whenever a new creature enters their presense. If it was meant to be just an environmental effect, I guess that it would only damage you if you started your turn in the area (or be limited to once per round.)

(Reply to #16)

Macv12

mellored wrote:

#19

Coredump00

Mar 20, 2015 10:01:22

Which all lead back to Crawfords statement: They have not seen expoits like this actually happen, and they value 'actual' exploits more than 'potential' exploits.

The 'once per round' restriction is what Calebrus was suggesting, but Crawford said it wasn't needed because they have not seen (or heard) it being a problem.

Also, this way is simple... the conditions are all immediate and do not depend on anything else. The 'once per round' restriction requires you track which creatures have been in or just got in, or whatever. Not saying it is that difficult, but probably why they want to go with this method.

(Reply to #16)

Coredump00

mellored wrote:

(Reply to #18)

Coredump00

Macv12 wrote:

(Reply to #16)

Bloodscythe

mellored wrote:

#23

mellored

Mar 20, 2015 10:36:57

Coredump00 wrote:

#24

mellored

Mar 20, 2015 10:41:30

Interestingly, this does create the possible exploit:

Cleric casts spell on his turn and hits you with the spell. Cleric moves so you're out of the range of the AoE.

Next turn, his ally carries/drags/pushes cleric closer to you, putting you back in range of the AoE and you take damage, then carries/drags/pushes cleric out of range.

Next turn, another ally does the same.

Next turn, another ally does the same.

You only take damage each and every turn if on each and every turn you stop being in the AoE then are in it again.

#25

Jamwes

Mar 20, 2015 10:45:03

Coredump00 wrote:

#26

jaelis

Mar 20, 2015 10:49:44

Jamwes wrote:

(Reply to #24)

Bloodscythe

mellored wrote:

#28

RulesJD

Mar 20, 2015 12:03:35

1. You can only move at half speed while grappling someone. At best, they can move the Cleric 15ft forward and 15ft backwards. Extremely easy to avoid as a DM.

2. If the entire team is willing to work in such a cooperative matter, then let them. They are giving up all of their actions and movement just to work as a team. Then they all get fireballed anyways.

(Reply to #25)

Coredump00

Jamwes wrote:

#30

curiousdragon

Mar 20, 2015 17:05:32

FWIW, in 4E, enter was clearly defined as the target creature being moved (willfully or not) into a zone and not vice-versa. This is not RAW, but could be considered precedent.

#31

lawrencehoy

Mar 22, 2015 19:52:02

I don't understand all the worry about the cleric running around on his turn; the targets only take damage once per turn. There has to be some other method of moving the target into the AoE on other turns (the cleric isn't going to be doing that without Readying his action, which he could have used to do damage otherwise). Other actions, on other turns, to move the target (or the cleric) are still using up resources that are trading damage for damage.

#32

leste_gr

Apr 01, 2015 5:11:22

From the "Insect plague" description:

When the area appears, each creature in it must
make a Constitution saving throw. A creature takes
4 d10 piercing damage on a failed save, or half as much
damage on a successful one. A creature must also make
this saving throw when it enters the spell’s area for the
first time on a turn or ends its turn there.

Notice how this one specifies explicitely that creatures in the area when it appears take damage right away? If Spirit Guardian was intended to cause damage twice or more per round just by moving the AoE then it would mean that either a) there is no reason for the explicit mention on insect plague above, or b)insect plague would deal its damage twice when cast (once for the explicit mention and once for the "also" clause) in addition to the end of the creatures' turn.

I am also a bit confused by Mr Crawford's tweet but the PHB intention shows otherwise. Unless, this means that "Spirit Guardians" does not cause damage when cast (regardless of creatures in its area) but after that everything goes.

(Reply to #32)

leste_gr

Additionally, the spell damage/area/effects do not add up when compared to other spells... Compare a 3rd level Spirit Guardian with a 3rd level flaming sphere, fireball or flame strike and you quickly find that it trumps all 3 in most circumstances (even though flame strike is 5th level on the same class spell list)

leste_gr wrote: