Counterspelling Shenanigans and Reactions - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 DaveDash Nov 02, 2014 14:58:51	This came up in our game last night. Scenario 1: Two casters (Soulafin and Sebastian) in the party face off against two enemy casters (Drow Arcane Guards). Soulafin decides to cast hold person. Arcane Guard 1 decides to counterspell. Sebastian decides to counterspell Arcane Guard 1's counterspell. Arcane Guard 2 decides to counterspell Sebastians counterspell. Soulafin decides to counterspell Arcane Guard's 2 counterspell. Legit? I couldn't see anything off hand that says you can't do things like that. The 'one spell per turn' rule only seems to apply to bonus actions, it appears you can counterspell and cast your spell, and counterspell other peoples counterspells. Unless there is something in the rules that explicitly states reactions cannot be interupted? Scenario 2: Then the party came to a door. They knew bad guys were on the other side. The bad guys also knew the party was on the opposing side. Each side readied actions to cast spells when the door was opened. The drow behind the door had two lightning bolts and one faery fire readied, the party had one hold person and one faery fire readied. My players asked me "which order do we go in? Dex?". I ruled that all reactions just happened simultaneously when the trigger occured, and that yes, you could get off your reaction and then subsiquently die, and no you couldn't be interupted when casting your spell (ie through damage breaking concentration) because it all happened 'at once', unless of course something explicitly stated otherwise like counterspell. I guess here you COULD use dex as an indicator of who is quicker to get their reactions off, but everyone in this scenario had the same dex. What says the forum on that one? Is there an order to reactions?
#2 AaronOfBarbaria Nov 02, 2014 17:26:12	Scenario 1: No reason for it not to play out that way. That's a lot of spell levels spent for not a lot to happen, and the reaction condition for each counterspelled seems to have been met, so no big deal. Scenario 2: What you describe is a situation in which you probably should have just rolled initiative and went in order - with people only being able to ready if they rolled higher than whoever was opening the door. That said, I think that once you have a situation where there are multiple characters with readied actions that occur on the same trigger (the opening of a door) you can have them go off simultaneously or in initiative order as desired because each has its pros and cons. I'd rather go in iniative order because it solves any contradictions of effect that might arise, but going simultaneously can prevent any "I didn't even get to do anything" moments, so it is worth consideration.
#3 usgrandprix Nov 03, 2014 7:47:02	DaveDash, Regarding Counterspell I have a couple of questions for you since you've used it: 1. Do you let the person who wants to cast Counterspell know what spell is being cast before they decide to use Counterspell? If there are rules on this I missed it. I was wondering how to do this. Maybe an Int (Arcane) check with a DC of 10+spell level? 2. The rules say "If it is casting a spell of 4th level or higher, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability." Do they get a proficiency bonus on this check? I think no but a player thought otherwise. Regarding your questions. I'd say #1 is legit as long as they only take one reaction each. Regarding #2 I'd say have them all roll initiative before the door is open. Then they can ready when their turn comes up. Then when the character takes the action to open the door, resolve readied actions in the order they were readied if they all share the same trigger.
#4 mellored Nov 03, 2014 7:51:18	1. Do you let the person who wants to cast Counterspell know what spell is being cast before they decide to use Counterspell? If there are rules on this I missed it. I was wondering how to do this. Maybe an Int (Arcane) check with a DC of 10+spell level?
#5 Bloodscythe Nov 03, 2014 9:25:09	DaveDash wrote:
#6 mellored Nov 03, 2014 11:06:15	Bloodscythe wrote:
(Reply to #6) Bloodscythe	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #7) DaveDash	Bloodscythe wrote:
(Reply to #3) DaveDash	usgrandprix wrote:
#10 DaveDash Nov 03, 2014 12:09:39	I hear what you guys are saying regarding initiative during reactions, but we feel its more like letting an arrow loose through the door, you could still die and get your arrow off at the same time. Also I'm not a fan of more dice rolling than is necessary.
(Reply to #8) Bloodscythe	DaveDash wrote:
#12 Slyck314 Nov 03, 2014 12:48:24	I thought there was a limit to only 1 full spell per turn. If you want to cast a second spell it has to be a cantrip no? Even if he is using his reaction its still during his turn.
#13 mellored Nov 03, 2014 12:56:46	Slyck314 wrote:
#14 Slyck314 Nov 03, 2014 13:46:02	Ok. How about the verbal components then. Can a wizard speak two spells at the same time? Unlike somatic, you only have one mouth.
#15 DaveDash Nov 03, 2014 14:00:28	RAW - nothing stops you from casting two verbal spells I don't think. Common sense - you could probably argue that you can't cast two verbals in the one round. Game flow - I wouldn't go there personally. Might bog down the game too much arguing back and forward about components. "Can you speak out to your party and then cast spells?" Would be the next thing to be raised....
#16 Slyck314 Nov 03, 2014 15:14:09	I have less problem with "in a round" then "at the same time" personally.
(Reply to #4) Coredump00	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #16) Bloodscythe	Slyck314 wrote:
#19 El_Condoro Nov 03, 2014 16:37:01	Counterspell only has a S component. One spell and one reaction spell for each caster is fine IMO for Scenario 1. That Hold Person spell must have been pretty important for 4 3rd level spells to be used to get it through or stop it!
(Reply to #19) Bloodscythe	El_Condoro wrote:
#21 Timborama Nov 03, 2014 18:04:07	1.) Totally legit. Totally fine use of action economy AND party resources (for foe and PCs) 2.) See, this is why you can't (or shouldn't) ready actions outside of initiative (is that true? I feel that's true. If not RAW it seems that way RAI). This is also why initiative exists in the first place. The second that scenario happened? I say "roll initiative." At the very least, what you should've done was have the door open, then roll initiative, then resolve as normal (people may lose their readied spells in this case!)
(Reply to #21) DaveDash	Timborama wrote:

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

DaveDash

Nov 02, 2014 14:58:51

This came up in our game last night.

Scenario 1:

Two casters (Soulafin and Sebastian) in the party face off against two enemy casters (Drow Arcane Guards).

Soulafin decides to cast hold person.

Arcane Guard 1 decides to counterspell.

Sebastian decides to counterspell Arcane Guard 1's counterspell.

Arcane Guard 2 decides to counterspell Sebastians counterspell.

Soulafin decides to counterspell Arcane Guard's 2 counterspell.

Legit? I couldn't see anything off hand that says you can't do things like that. The 'one spell per turn' rule only seems to apply to bonus actions, it appears you can counterspell and cast your spell, and counterspell other peoples counterspells. Unless there is something in the rules that explicitly states reactions cannot be interupted?

Scenario 2:

Then the party came to a door. They knew bad guys were on the other side. The bad guys also knew the party was on the opposing side. Each side readied actions to cast spells when the door was opened.

The drow behind the door had two lightning bolts and one faery fire readied, the party had one hold person and one faery fire readied.

My players asked me "which order do we go in? Dex?".

I ruled that all reactions just happened simultaneously when the trigger occured, and that yes, you could get off your reaction and then subsiquently die, and no you couldn't be interupted when casting your spell (ie through damage breaking concentration) because it all happened 'at once', unless of course something explicitly stated otherwise like counterspell.

I guess here you COULD use dex as an indicator of who is quicker to get their reactions off, but everyone in this scenario had the same dex.

What says the forum on that one? Is there an order to reactions?

AaronOfBarbaria

Nov 02, 2014 17:26:12

Scenario 1: No reason for it not to play out that way. That's a lot of spell levels spent for not a lot to happen, and the reaction condition for each counterspelled seems to have been met, so no big deal.

Scenario 2: What you describe is a situation in which you probably should have just rolled initiative and went in order - with people only being able to ready if they rolled higher than whoever was opening the door.

That said, I think that once you have a situation where there are multiple characters with readied actions that occur on the same trigger (the opening of a door) you can have them go off simultaneously or in initiative order as desired because each has its pros and cons.

I'd rather go in iniative order because it solves any contradictions of effect that might arise, but going simultaneously can prevent any "I didn't even get to do anything" moments, so it is worth consideration.

usgrandprix

Nov 03, 2014 7:47:02

DaveDash,

Regarding Counterspell I have a couple of questions for you since you've used it:

1. Do you let the person who wants to cast Counterspell know what spell is being cast before they decide to use Counterspell? If there are rules on this I missed it. I was wondering how to do this. Maybe an Int (Arcane) check with a DC of 10+spell level?

2. The rules say "If it is casting a spell of 4th level or higher, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability." Do they get a proficiency bonus on this check? I think no but a player thought otherwise.

Regarding your questions. I'd say #1 is legit as long as they only take one reaction each.

Regarding #2 I'd say have them all roll initiative before the door is open. Then they can ready when their turn comes up. Then when the character takes the action to open the door, resolve readied actions in the order they were readied if they all share the same trigger.

mellored

Nov 03, 2014 7:51:18

1. Do you let the person who wants to cast Counterspell know what spell is being cast before they decide to use Counterspell? If there are rules on this I missed it. I was wondering how to do this. Maybe an Int (Arcane) check with a DC of 10+spell level?

Bloodscythe

Nov 03, 2014 9:25:09

DaveDash wrote:

mellored

Nov 03, 2014 11:06:15

Bloodscythe wrote:

(Reply to #6)

Bloodscythe

mellored wrote:

(Reply to #7)

DaveDash

Bloodscythe wrote:

(Reply to #3)

DaveDash

usgrandprix wrote:

#10

DaveDash

Nov 03, 2014 12:09:39

I hear what you guys are saying regarding initiative during reactions, but we feel its more like letting an arrow loose through the door, you could still die and get your arrow off at the same time. Also I'm not a fan of more dice rolling than is necessary.

(Reply to #8)

Bloodscythe

DaveDash wrote:

#12

Slyck314

Nov 03, 2014 12:48:24

I thought there was a limit to only 1 full spell per turn. If you want to cast a second spell it has to be a cantrip no? Even if he is using his reaction its still during his turn.

#13

mellored

Nov 03, 2014 12:56:46

Slyck314 wrote:

#14

Slyck314

Nov 03, 2014 13:46:02

Ok. How about the verbal components then. Can a wizard speak two spells at the same time? Unlike somatic, you only have one mouth.

#15

DaveDash

Nov 03, 2014 14:00:28

RAW - nothing stops you from casting two verbal spells I don't think.
Common sense - you could probably argue that you can't cast two verbals in the one round.
Game flow - I wouldn't go there personally. Might bog down the game too much arguing back and forward about components. "Can you speak out to your party and then cast spells?" Would be the next thing to be raised....

#16

Slyck314

Nov 03, 2014 15:14:09

I have less problem with "in a round" then "at the same time" personally.

(Reply to #4)

Coredump00

mellored wrote:

(Reply to #16)

Bloodscythe

Slyck314 wrote:

#19

El_Condoro

Nov 03, 2014 16:37:01

Counterspell only has a S component. One spell and one reaction spell for each caster is fine IMO for Scenario 1. That Hold Person spell must have been pretty important for 4 3rd level spells to be used to get it through or stop it!

(Reply to #19)

Bloodscythe

El_Condoro wrote:

#21

Timborama

Nov 03, 2014 18:04:07

1.) Totally legit. Totally fine use of action economy AND party resources (for foe and PCs)

2.) See, this is why you can't (or shouldn't) ready actions outside of initiative (is that true? I feel that's true. If not RAW it seems that way RAI). This is also why initiative exists in the first place. The second that scenario happened? I say "roll initiative." At the very least, what you should've done was have the door open, then roll initiative, then resolve as normal (people may lose their readied spells in this case!)

(Reply to #21)

DaveDash

Timborama wrote: