Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 shadowoflameth2 Jan 13, 2015 19:24:20	So, I'm not seeing COup De Gras, or a rule for attacking helpless foes by any other name. Anyone know where to look, or have thoughts?
#2 iserith Jan 13, 2015 19:41:23	The relevant rules are:   Unconscious condition, Basic Rules, page 107. Critical Hits, Basic Rules, page 75.   My ruling is:   Sometimes a character attacking a creature that is unconscious or otherwise helpless will have an uncertain outcome such that an attack and damage roll is necessary to facilitate the DM narrating the result of an adventurer's action. In other cases, an attack against an unconscious or otherwise helpless creature will simply kill the creature outright (no roll) if the DM decides that outcome is certain.   But you or your DM may make a ruling differently based upon this or other criteria.
#3 Macv12 Jan 14, 2015 0:56:04	I see that rule as existing primarily for PCs and important villains. The players have time to react to a death and get to their fallen ally before the enemy just whacks off their head, or the baddies have time to get their all-important BBEG out of harm's way (particularly when the DM wasn't expecting them to die so soon :o ).   Because, really. I have a knife, they have a windpipe, how does this scenario go awry?
#4 Razintarr Jan 14, 2015 5:25:12	Iserith covers the technical part of the question nicely, with the unconscious condition and critical hits.   Further, there is no reason for a seperate coup de grace action. The players shouldn't need it.  Only the players (and maybe recurring villains) use the dying rules. It's stated (in the PHB I think) that most monsters just die at 0 hps. And that's great, because a monster has a different role in the adventure than players. The monster is an obstacle for the players and now it's overcome. The role of the players stretch beyond the single encounter with the monster, so they need to have a bigger chance of surviving. No need for extra bookkeeping to keep track of monster death-saves. No need for the players to un-heroically scoure the battlefield after the encounter to kill any monster that's not dead yet.  No need to hold back on the description that takes the monster to 0 hp ("you see an opening and with a fell swoop dislodge the orcs head from his body" is so much more satisfying than "he drops and is dying").   And after the combat, what happens is in the realm of plot. If the players want to check the bodies to see if any of the enemies are still alive, don't make tons of checks to see if any of them made it. Just decide whether one is still breathing and tell the players. And if the players then decide to give the dying enemy an actual coup de grace (a killing blow meant to end the suffering of a mortally wounded enemy) then just declare that they kill the enemy.
#5 mellored Jan 14, 2015 7:45:44	Macv12 wrote:
#6 alienux Jan 14, 2015 9:38:58	It was listed as an action in many of the packets during the playtest, but was removed before final release. iserith's references should cover what you need for that action in the final rules.
#7 Archon007 Jan 14, 2015 10:04:11	There is no need for it really. In combat the rules state when a creature or NPC is brought to 0 they are dead unless the attacker is using a melee weapon and states they are knocking it unconscious. As far as a player you make Death Saves and if attacked while unconscious and take damage you suffer an automatic Death Save failure, if it's a Critical hit you suffer 2 failed Death Saves.    If you are talkng about someone being tied up or incapacitated in some other way, I always thought the Coup De Grace rules in past DND where just silly. The GM needs to use common sense here.   Past DND enemy NPC 150 hit points tied up;   Player: I slit his throat GM: ok you get Coup De Grace which is a critical hit and max damage you do 25 damage he has 125 left.    Again, common sense needs to be applied not written rules and that's why you have a GM.
#8 Stormborn20 Jan 14, 2015 10:52:49	Hehe, I frequently hear people mispronounce it as "Coup de Gras," but I've never seen someone write it that way before.  Was this an intentional joke, poking fun at the mispronunciation?
#9 Kennethray Jan 14, 2015 13:29:04	Is the OP talking about times other then when the creature is at 0 HP? Such as when the creature is asleep, or out due to some magical or natural reason? If so, I think its just that you get a free crit before waking, or insta kill if damage will not bring it back awake.     K-Ray
(Reply to #8) Macv12	Stormborn20 wrote:
(Reply to #10) Llenlleawg	Macv12 wrote:
#12 guachi Jan 15, 2015 6:51:29	+1 to the language nerds. Gras is pronounced like grah. While grâce is pronounced like grass but the 'a' is like 'a' in father. When I hear it pronounced like coo de grah I think of someone beating someone to death with a tub of lard....
(Reply to #12) OoftaMeg	guachi wrote:
#14 paulstrait Jan 17, 2015 19:26:18	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #14) AaronOfBarbaria	paulstrait wrote:
#16 paulstrait Jan 17, 2015 19:34:23	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#17 Kalani Jan 17, 2015 22:26:24	Archon007 wrote:
#18 Yunru Jan 18, 2015 2:10:58	Yeah! Let's run a zombie invasion where the zombies also make DTS :P It'll be slower than dial-up.
(Reply to #18) Undrhil	Yunru wrote:
#20 Yunru Jan 18, 2015 4:30:44	Exactly :P First you have to get past Undead Fortitude, then you have to stop them succeeding at their DTS. Hence slower than dial-up.
#21 Coredump00 Jan 18, 2015 6:14:57	It doesn't add any resiliency to the bad guys, even if they survive they are passed out for hours.  My problem is it means the 'heroes' need to kill a lot of defenseless creatures.  Now you just kill the 10 orcs in battle. Clean and done.  WIth DST, you will end up with 5 helpless, unconscious, orcs you need to execute. Not the herioc story I want to tell.
#22 Kalani Jan 18, 2015 9:32:35	Coredump00 wrote:
#23 mellored Jan 18, 2015 11:01:49	Yes, my bad.
#24 Synjin Jan 19, 2015 7:29:28	Kalani wrote:
#25 BRJN Jan 25, 2015 11:10:47	If you need something for coup de grace's (and the above does not satisfy), treat it as an Assassin's surprise attack under the best possible conditions.   But I would just narrate it.  You are killing on purpose somebody who cannot do anything about it (because he's out cold -or- on death's doorstep anyways).
#26 Psikerlord Jan 25, 2015 17:32:45	shadowoflameth2 wrote:
#27 paulstrait Jan 25, 2015 18:57:51	Also worth noting -- if a creature is paralyzed or unconscious, there is a coup de grâce -- all attacks made from within 5 feet that hit are automatic criticals.  That's pretty much the coup de grâce rule from previous editions...
#28 Timborama Jan 27, 2015 10:49:12	Kalani wrote:
#29 Noctaem Jan 27, 2015 11:15:11	Timborama wrote: