Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Sands666 Sep 09, 2014 3:13:15	If you take a class at a given level and use it as an npc to fight against the pcs, what would the CR value be?   please don't lecture me about why this shouldn't be done as I'm not going to listen to that.    Simply curious if anyone figured out the values for this.
#2 xtianstone Sep 09, 2014 5:48:12	I would say a level 1 with simple gear would be 1/4.  A level 2 would be 1/2, a level 3 would be 1, and level 4 would be 2, etc..  The issue is to consider magic items.  If they have a the adventurers level of magic you may want to bump it up a level.  For example, a level 5 cleric I would guess would be CR 3.  However, if you put a rare magic item in their hands and add potions, scrolls, etc. I would bump it up to 4.   I hope you will see more details of this in the DMs guide in a few weeks.  For now, this would be my guess.  If you under-guess and get a TPK, just say "oops" and play the party as a bunch of zombies who broke free of their masters control.
#3 Thoughts_My_Aim Sep 09, 2014 8:14:44	I'd say CR equal to level, assuming PC-equivalent abilities and gear.   By definition, a party of four PCs fighting an identical party of four PCs would have a 50% chance of being a TPK (assuming they fought until one party was dead) - that's a *hugely* dangerous encounter.   One PC-equivalent character is a "suitable" challenge for a party, in the sense of being a challenge the party is supposed to overcome using a limited set of resources.   At low level, gear will make a big difference.
#4 Trance-Zg Sep 09, 2014 9:21:51	I would say that lvl1 PC class NPC is CR 1/2 simply because of HP and it can be alpha striked without problem.
#5 Thoughts_My_Aim Sep 09, 2014 13:39:35	Trance-Zg wrote:
#6 Trance-Zg Sep 09, 2014 14:31:56	Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
#7 Thoughts_My_Aim Sep 09, 2014 15:26:35	Trance-Zg wrote:
#8 Sands666 Sep 10, 2014 1:13:34	I think I like considering a PC at level 1 as 1/4 and scaling up per level from there. I feel this makes the most sense as I look over the DMG/MM PDF. They have a wizard and a priest in this PDF, but they created these NPCs using a method for monsters. They have d8s as hit dice. They are a caster of a give level. But when you calculate their proficiency bonuses it is one below the level they should get. For instance the Mage on pg 55 is a 9th level caster and his proficiency bonus should be +4 per normal PC Class building rules. It is a +3 though. Same thing happens with the Priest on this page. The CR seems to be level minus 3, probably factoring in the use of d8s for HD? But Clerica already use d8s. Also, if you go to Berserker and try to start calculating why this 67 hp opponent is a CR2, it gets more confusing. From what I've seeing, the Berserker monster is just built to be that and is not based on a Barbarian class at all.    Its interesting to investigate. But honestly, the one thing I did not like about 4th was the separation between PC stats and Monster stats. So, I hope the dmg has a good method for applying CR values to PC classes when used for NPCs. Obviously people can just do whatever the want but it's nice to know threat levels for game mechanics too.    For now though, 1/4 = level 1 encounter and scaling up from there seems great! Plus scaling up for magic items too.    thanks for the Input all.
#9 Thoughts_My_Aim Sep 10, 2014 8:02:15	If you make a level 1 PC a CR 1/4 then that makes four level 1 PCs CR 1. This is clearly wrong, since a CR1 encounter should be one that the PCs can overcome with a moderate use of resources whereas, by definition, four level 1 PCs fighting four identical level 1 PCs are very likely to take casualties, and have a 50% chance of a TPK.
#10 Goober4473 Sep 10, 2014 8:42:41	Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
#11 Thoughts_My_Aim Sep 10, 2014 8:59:14	Ah, for some reason I'd thought it was more than four monsters.
#12 Illithidbix Sep 10, 2014 13:16:48	Looking at the DM Basic rules PDF, four NPCs stand out as "almost PC classes" as guidelines.   Acolyte (Hitpoints: 9/2D8), casts spells as a level 1 spellcaster. CR 1/4 Priest (Hitpoints: 27/5D8+5) and casts spells as a level 5 spellcaster: CR: 2 Knight (Hitpoints: 52/8d8 +16), two attacks, parry reaction: CR 3 Mage: (Hitpoints: 40/9D8), casts spells as a 9th level spellcaster: CR 6   (monster hitpoints are D8 for most NPCs due to being medium sized)   Note however that Prof. bonus for monsters' attacks, saving throws and skills is based upon their CR, not their "hitdice" So a CR3 Knight's attack bonus with STR 16 is +5, not +6 for having 8 "levels"