Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Alficles Jan 16, 2015 11:01:16	The DMG produced a set of rules for crafting magic items. (It didn't even list them as "alternate", so we can assume they're supposed to be part of the base rules.)   However, as part of the requirements, a crafter must possess a formula specifically for that item. I can't seem to find anywhere that indicates where one might obtain such a formula. It doesn't appear to be in any of the item lists or in any other place. Barring the DM inventing an item creation system from wholecloth, is it possible to actually obtain formulas for downtime crafting?
#2 mellored Jan 16, 2015 11:30:47	Alficles wrote:
#3 Tempest_Stormwind Jan 16, 2015 11:34:50	Formulas are barely mentioned, with only two real properties: you need them to craft an item, and they're usually one step rarer than the item itself (and the language describing how fantastically rare magic items are gets turned up to 11 on the formulas).    As such, we don't even have a template for what one looks like, let alone how to place them in the game. As you note, crafting items isn't an alternate rule - but placing formulas certainly is, and that's how the game is leaving item creation up to the DM's whim. Players can do it, but only if the DM gives them the formula (and decides what that actually entails).   I wouldn't worry about it too much unless you're trying to make an artificer (which will presumably come once Eberron gets the 5e treatment, though you can use Keith Baker's hack in the meantime - it focused on the artificer as a magical hacker rather than a magical engineer), or if you're DMing for someone who is trying that. The math of the game works out surprisingly well without any magic items at all, and you still get a small selection from treasure hoards or starting at a higher level. Of course, they won't necessarily be the ones you want, but that's part of the appeal. (I, for one, am not at all sad to see shopping lists and the requisite accounting disappear.) And the most common permanent items are still the staples (i.e. +1 weapons take up a whopping 15% of Table F, and they're not the only magic weapons on that table).
#4 Coredump00 Jan 16, 2015 11:36:19	It is very clearly listed as an *option* that the DM may or may not allow. They are *not* part of the base rules.   The DM decides if magic can be crafted, then the DM needs to create and place a creation Formula, then the DM determines if/what special requirements are part of the formula.   And remember, the formula is meant to be 1 level more rare than the item it makes.
(Reply to #3) Alficles	Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
#6 mellored Jan 16, 2015 12:28:43	Alficles wrote:
(Reply to #6) Alficles	mellored wrote:
#8 mellored Jan 16, 2015 12:45:37	Alficles wrote:
(Reply to #8) Alficles	mellored wrote:
#10 Tempest_Stormwind Jan 16, 2015 13:19:47	Magic item formulae are one level rarer than the item they craft. An Uncommon item needs a Rare formula to make it.   I would not try gaming the system to say you can mundanely craft a formula. "The rules don't say I can't" isn't good form, and that's exactly the same reasoning behind crafting a formula and saying you can fly without wings.   HOWEVER, I would definitely run this by the DM, describing the crafting time as research and development. It seems reasonable to me (although I would definitely make it quite expensive if the setting isn't Eberron - and there I'd have a House Cannith monopoly on most of them, which has different bureaucratic and monetary costs), but I'm not running your game.   One of the big mental shifts with 5e is that "RAW" is a lot more flexible, by design, and "Check with your DM" is significantly more prominent than it was in 3.5 and 4e. That's why you won't find hard costs for magic items, or explicit ways to make formulae - because the game leaves that up to the DM (and, actually, works quite fine without magic items altogether, even though that'd be a shade on the boring side.)       EDIT: Yes, I said above that I think researching and developing formulae using the mundane craft rules might be a good way to handle some item construct. However, I just remembered there's a potential counterexample. The Axe of the Dwarf Lords (yes, it's an artifact, but artifacts are still under the umbrella of magic items) goes into great lengths about how it was made, and it included four other magic items used in its construction. While there's nothing in the rules that says formulae are magical, there's also nothing saying they don't consist of other magic items either.   Since we know absolutely jack about what goes into a formula, we also can't say that they don't include unusual prerequisites (i.e. "Must be created under the light of a full moon" or "requires the sacrifice of a celestial's still-beating heart" or even "(Requires attunement by a fey spellcaster)", rather than simply relying on the more common price+level+spell=item equation.
(Reply to #9) EzechielDantan	Alficles wrote:
#12 bonethug0108 Jan 16, 2015 13:23:16	If your DM allows crafting magic items it says(IIRC) that he can include formulas instead of items of the same level in loot(whether he rolls or predetermines). Whether these are the formulas you want or random is up to you and your DM to work out(same as getting a specific magic item or just getting a random one).   Magic items, and their creation, are all DM dependent.
#13 Yunru Jan 16, 2015 13:23:40	I plan on having a 1 in 4 chance for a magical loot item to be replaced by it's formula.
(Reply to #9) Coredump00	Alficles wrote:
(Reply to #13) Coredump00	Yunru wrote:
#16 Yunru Jan 16, 2015 16:10:41	Probably same. Yes they can craft an unlimited number, but they have to put the time and money in to get the same reward as simply getting the item. I was also considering a game where only formula where given out. Possibly combined with the "no overnight healing" variant rule.
#17 El_Condoro Jan 17, 2015 22:39:22	If magical items are very rare in a D&D world, then formulas are worth more than gold, gems and jewellery - they are the formula to Coca Cola, or the patent to a cure for some real world disease by comparison, at least in my D&D world. In short, they are a cash-cow or Well of Unlimited Wealth, but they are more than that, too. To a spell caster they might be prestige and renown; to a martial character, they are a means to glory; to a rogue, they are all of these with great wealth attached. Not only do the characters get to weild magical items, they can make them, or have someone else make them.   So, I intend formaulas to be very hard to come by and involve risk, both to obtain them and to keep them.   Formulas will be multi-part and mundane in themselves - kind of like instructions without any inherent magic. By multi-part I mean they will be found in pieces: a set of instructions that have been lost, pages torn out, torn diagram pages, stained, and the characters need to reconstruct them before they are useable. Even then, for the very powerful items, they may require the use of other magical items (as mentioned above for the Axe of the Dwarvish Lords) that might require a quest to find. In short, obtaining the formula will be a quest and series of adventures in itself. Treasure hoards might contain parts of formulas but only the most common magical item formulas will be found complete.   Once the formula has been obtained it becomes a risk itself. Imagine how much it will be coveted if it has taken so much effort to get? Something of such value will be prized by others and the characters will need to protect it and hide it to keep it safe. Powerful enemies with the goal to steal the formula make other adventures. The more magical items made with the formula, the greater the risk as those powerful enemies zero in on their source.   I think the way the formula idea has been incorporated is a good way for the DM to manage the proliferation of magical items in a campaign. If yours has a greater proliferation of magical items, make getting a formula easier. Whatever flavour you and your players want for magic and magical items is up to you and can be done within the vague outlines given.
#18 delong1522 Jan 18, 2015 9:28:27	I have a question about crafting. It seems it requires at least one of the crafting PCs to be capable of spellcasting, but what about the additional participants? Any ideas?
#19 Kalani Jan 18, 2015 10:10:59	delong1522 wrote:
#20 AaronOfBarbaria Jan 18, 2015 14:00:29	Kalani is remembering correctly, and the details are covered on page 129 of the DMG.   "Multiple characters can combine their efforts to create a miagic item if each of them meets the level prerequisite." being the more important phrase of the passage.
#21 Ashrym Jan 18, 2015 18:19:11	If the DM is into your downtime crafting, you can take inspiration from Kvothe in The Name of the Wind and The Wise Man's Fear. A university that teaches magical formulas in an artificery as a class and uses the students' projects for sale can give the formulas for the right price. The DM might be interested in that type of campaign setting for common items.
#22 Illithidbix Jan 18, 2015 19:13:35	Alficles wrote:
#23 jonathonhawke Jan 18, 2015 21:59:21	Previous editions had rules for spell research, allowing a wizard to create new spells not in the book (with the DM's help and approval), or learn spells beyond the two gained when he levels up. Would you allow this in your game?  How would it work?
#24 Kalani Jan 18, 2015 22:12:32	I really like the formula system tbh. The wonder and excitement that players would have over finding an item creation formula as part of a treasure hoard would be far greater than finding the item itself. While it is possible for some formula's to be single-use items (akin to scrolls), and which destroying the formula itself is one of its requirements - I assume most formula's to be multi-use items, more like spells or rituals.   As such, finding something that allows players the potential of making multiple items (although reageants and other material components might be exceedingly rare) would evoke the exact kind of response from players that I wish magic items in general did.
(Reply to #24) Alficles	All right, thanks for the feedback. Here's what we've decided. First off, obviously the ball is in the court of the DM. That said, if the DM wants to allow crafting as a part of the campaign, it would really be nice if there were rules for him to use for that.   With two fairly minor house-rules, I think the rules support this:   To craft an item, you need the formula and the requirements already mentioned. The formula is a nonmagial object and it can be created via the standard crafting rules. The rules don't give it a "value", so we'll set the value to match the cost of what it creates. (Justification: if there is no effective market for magic items, then people won't craft more than they need. Few magic items are worth having many copies of. So it's probably not worth much more than the value of a single item. Second, it can't be much less, for balance reasons. Third, we have to pick a number, and this one seems fair. This is an easy spot to adjust if you wish.) A formula doesn't neatly match an existing category of crafting, so we'll create a new proficiency: Research. You can use "Scribe's Tools" proficiency or another existing proficiency if you wish. But making it specific forces the player to spend real in-character choices on it if they wish to do research. The houserule is slightly weaker than using an existing proficiency, but that seems justified.   With that said, a player who wishes to do a bunch of research on their own is going to find themselves with very little time for adventuring. At a rate of 5 gp/day, it will take an exceedingly long time to research the formula for even relatively minor items. This will force a person who wishes to focus on crafting to aquire additional resources for it. Perhaps skilled labour in research can be found (DM's discretion, but there are rules for skilled labour if it's available). Perhaps the research can be done on a plane with fast time (DM's discretion, but might serve as a mechanism for a variety of plot points). And of course, formulas (or perhaps portions thereof) might be found as loot. Perhaps the player is effectively limited to fairly low level crafting.   It allows crafting to work moderately well without dominating the scene. A player who invests their funds and proficiency will eventually wind up with more perfectly suited items, but they'll have worked for it. And the story will reflect both the character of the character as well as its impact on the people around him.   Still, I'm slightly dissatisfied that crafting requires houserules. I would have at least expected an optional rules module with details in it.
#26 Tempest_Stormwind Jan 19, 2015 16:31:24	Those seem fair, though I would still add a markup to the price of the formula (since although there's no real market for items now, being able to craft that efficiently could certainly create one!).. It needn't be a large one, but it should be enough that a number of items corresponding to "as many as they need" won't make up the cost difference. (For weapons or the like, +20% should be enough. For Potions of Healing, which is a Common item, it shouldn't be quite so cheap, since making it so cheap would result in more people researching how to make such a popular item, and I find it hard to believe that its current market price is the result of such a wide range of manufacturers competing.) However, if you have a magic item of that sort already that you didn't make (and can thus study to learn how it was made), that markup disappears. Also, possibly requiring a down payment on lab facilities if you don't have them would be appropriate, since 5e really does seem to lean a lot on encouraging players to pick up real estate or businesses. (Earlier editions often had you establish labs for around 500gp or so for most of this.)   I really do like keeping it a separate proficiency, and apart from the slight extra costs I suggested, I think your reasoning makes sense.   As for houserule crafting, the standard game assumes that magic items aren't being made by PCs. Wait for Eberron, where the setting assumes the exact opposite, and you'll see something. (They'll probably handle Common and some Uncommon items more easily.)
(Reply to #26) Alficles	For the lab, I don't think it has to be "required". A moderate level item might take a thousand days to research without assistance. In order to have it work in a timely manner, he'll have to hire help. Help will require both a lab and a fairly stable location. (Even if the DM rules that a moderate or large city has researchers willing to support the effort, they're very unlikely to move around a lot.) One is tempted to borrow the castle-building rules, too, which have provisions for when the player is not present (3x work slowdown, iirc).
#28 Illithidbix Jan 19, 2015 16:44:52	Alficles wrote:
#29 Coredump00 Jan 19, 2015 17:24:16	The formula is a level more rare than the item it is for.  So its value should be much higher....    I think the DM is missing an oportunity to even allow the formula to be found via research.  What a great hook to get them PCs on a quest or three... searching out the formula needed...
#30 Alficles Jan 20, 2015 13:14:06	Coredump00 wrote:
#31 Tempest_Stormwind Jan 20, 2015 14:16:14	Alficles wrote:
(Reply to #31) Alficles	Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
(Reply to #30) Coredump00	Alficles wrote:
#34 EzechielDantan Jan 21, 2015 2:00:14	The ules for magical items are very much short of complete, I feel that is what is needed to enforce the rare magic feel of this 5th edition though. If you advertise are magic and publish extensive rules to craft magical items it will be harder for gamers to make the switch to the new default. So in a way I am glad they didnt wok out the details.   To make the magical item crafting wok you would have to price every magical item according to it's value. As it is it just doesn't make any sense, using the system as is there is a huge spread in cost and even within those spreads items, mostly consumables, are out off place. Something they'd have to sort out if they ever came up with more extensive / complete ules for crafting.
#35 HighPlainsElf Sep 29, 2015 13:54:21	Illithidbix wrote:
#36 Tempest_Stormwind Sep 29, 2015 15:04:07	HighPlainsElf wrote: