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#1 Crimlet Jun 17, 2015 23:14:32	This question is about the wording for the Create Bonfire spell found in the Elemental Evil Player's Companion. Create Bonfire Conjuration cantrip Casting Time: 1 action Range: 60 feet Components: V, S Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute You create a bonfire on ground that you can see within range. Until the spells ends, the bonfire fills a 5-foot cube. Any creature in the bonfire’s space when you cast the spell must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 1d8 fire damage. A creature must also make the saving throw when it enters the bonfire’s space for the first time on a turn or ends its turn there. The spell’s damage increases by 1d8 when you reach 5th level (2d8), 11th level (3d8), and 17th level (4d8). 1. Bonfire is magical fire? 2. If the bonfire is cast on the spot where a creature is standing, it rolls a Dex save. On fail, the creature takes damage. But what happens when the creature starts his turn. Since the spell was cast where he was standing, he would start his turn in the bonfire. Does he have to roll the Dex save again since he started his turn in the bonfire? 3. What if the creature enters the bonfire? It says he has option of rolling dex save or ending his turn in the bonfire? Or does it say he rolls a dex save if he enters the bonfire and if he ends his turn in the bonifre? Meaning he would roll if he enters, and if he stays, he rolls again? I'm not sure the wording means that a creature entering the bonfire has a choice between: A. Rolling a Dex save B. Ending his turn in the bonfire. Or if it means he rolls a Dex save if he either: A. Enters the bonfire. B. Ends his turn while in the bonfire. Or if it means creature enters the bonfire, and rolls a Dex save. On fail, he ends his turn there. And also, in either case, I'm not sure what would happen if a creature starts his turn in the bonfire.
#2 mellored Jun 18, 2015 2:27:37	1: yes 2: nothing happens at the start of it's turn. it only takes damage again if it stays there, or leaves and walks back in. 3: roll as soon as it enters, but NOT a second time if it ends it's turn there. it does not affect the creatures movement in any way, so it can simply take damage and keep walking.
#3 Byakugan01 Jun 18, 2015 5:40:09	Question 1 is not a real question. There is no distinction between fire from something like a torch and/or fire created using magic. Some older editions made a distinction. Falling in a pool of volcanic lava deals the exact same kind of damage as getting burned by a torch.
#4 jaelis Jun 18, 2015 7:21:36	You could plausibly have a creature that is immune to non-magical fire. I don't think they do, but at least hypothetically it could matter.
#5 zingbobco000 Jun 18, 2015 8:18:58	Crimlet wrote:
#6 Bloodscythe Jun 18, 2015 9:43:48	It's definitely "magical" fire. It doesn't require fuel, and a DM could even say it burns during a downpour as long as you concentrate.
#7 Coredump00 Jun 18, 2015 10:53:58	Some stuff is easy 1) It is magical fire 2) It does nothing at the start of a turn 3) The first time a creature enters the fire (per turn), it must save or take damage. 4) If a creature ends it turn in the fire, it must save or take damage What we don't know.... is if 3) and 4) can happen on the same turn. So a creature enters the fire, he must save or take damage. He stops moving. At the end of his turn...does he need to make another save...??? I don't think it is clear. My impression is only one save per turn.... but I can't swear to that....
#8 Helnam Jun 18, 2015 11:15:34	Coredump00 wrote:
(Reply to #8) Bloodscythe	Helnam wrote:
#10 OoftaMeg Jun 18, 2015 12:56:44	Personally I wouldn't call the fire magical, there is no "magic fire" defined anywhere in the book and it causes all sorts of questions. How would magic fire interact with vulnerabilities, resistances and immunities? Can a magic fire cause non-magic fire? What about the light from a magic fire? I don't understand why it would matter. If magical fire is somehow different than regular fire then mummies are no longer vulnerable to it and salamanders are no longer immune, etc. If it is identical, then it has no affect so why add the complexity? Just my two coppers.
(Reply to #10) Bloodscythe	OoftaMeg wrote:
(Reply to #11) OoftaMeg	Bloodscythe wrote:
(Reply to #12) Bloodscythe	OoftaMeg wrote:
(Reply to #3) Crimlet	Byakugan01 wrote:
(Reply to #10) Crimlet	OoftaMeg wrote:
#16 jaelis Jun 18, 2015 14:09:42	What is the difference you see between whether it is magical or not? Edit- You're looking at Control Flames, I guess? That's just going to be up to the DM I think. I guess I wouldn't let it work, but its a good question.
#17 Crimlet Jun 18, 2015 14:12:45	Some things seem to be clearer. But i'm still a bit unclear about the it being regular or magical. Also it says"Any creature in the bonfire’s space when you cast the spell must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 1d8 fire damage. A creature must also make the saving throw when it enters the bonfire’s space for the first time on a turn or ends its turn there." The first part "must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 1d8 fire damage". It would mean that if it fails, the consequence is that it takes the 1d8 fire damage. The second part "must also make the same saving throw when it enteres the bonfire's space for the first time on a turn or ends its turn there". Does it mean that if it fails, the consequence is that it ends its turn there? I can't seem to figure out if it means: A. Make saving throw if it enters the space AS WELL AS make saving throw if it ends turn in the space. B. Like the first sentence which says succeed or X, enter the space, suceed, or else it ends the turn in the space if it fails. The wording is confusing. So far, I've been playing: - Non magical flame. Thus all effects from Control Flames can work on Bonfire. - Creature makes saving throw if it is cast on him, he enters it, he ends his turn in it. No save throw made if he starts his turn in it.
#18 Coredump00 Jun 18, 2015 15:19:25	Of course it is magical. It was created by magic, it continues by magic, it can be released by magic. You don't get much more magical than that. Control flames will not work on it. OTOH, it may also cause a non-magical fire to start if there is any fuel nearby, and that fire can be controled via Control Flame or anything else that can only effect non-magical fires.
(Reply to #17) Coredump00	Crimlet wrote:
#20 OoftaMeg Jun 18, 2015 17:01:44	I guess it depends on how you view conjuration working. The way I look at it, you are not creating the fire - it is being conjured from somewhere. IMHO the thing you conjure is not inherently magical unless it specifically says so. I'm not saying my opinion is correct. I can't find anything that would give a definitive answer. My suggestion? Do what's fun for your group.
(Reply to #19) zingbobco000	Coredump00 wrote:
#22 jaelis Jun 18, 2015 17:37:13	zingbobco000 wrote:
#23 Crimlet Jun 18, 2015 17:54:23	jaelis wrote:
#24 Crimlet Jun 18, 2015 17:59:00	Coredump00 wrote:
#25 jaelis Jun 18, 2015 18:04:19	Another way of saying the second part would be: A. If you enter the space, you must succeed at the saving throw or else you end your turn in the space. This is completely different from interpreting the sentence to say: B. If you enter the space or if you end your turn in the space, you must succeed at the saving throw, or take damage. The consensus seems to be saying that the sentanc means A. Although the first time I read it, I thought it meant B.
#26 Coredump00 Jun 18, 2015 20:49:27	No one is saying it means A. In fact I have repeatedly stated the exact opposite. IN fact the post he quoted said the exact opposite.
#27 Tempest_Stormwind Jun 18, 2015 21:00:56	Crimlet wrote:
#28 Crimlet Jun 19, 2015 9:34:38	Tempest_Stormwind wrote:

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

Crimlet

Jun 17, 2015 23:14:32

This question is about the wording for the Create Bonfire spell found in the Elemental Evil Player's Companion.

Create Bonfire
Conjuration cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
You create a bonfire on ground that you can see within range. Until the spells ends, the bonfire fills a 5-foot cube. Any creature in the bonfire’s space when you cast the spell must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 1d8 fire damage. A creature must also make the saving throw when it enters the bonfire’s space for the first time on a turn or ends its turn there. The spell’s damage increases by 1d8 when you reach 5th level (2d8), 11th level (3d8), and 17th level (4d8).

1. Bonfire is magical fire?

2. If the bonfire is cast on the spot where a creature is standing, it rolls a Dex save. On fail, the creature takes damage. But what happens when the creature starts his turn. Since the spell was cast where he was standing, he would start his turn in the bonfire. Does he have to roll the Dex save again since he started his turn in the bonfire?

3. What if the creature enters the bonfire? It says he has option of rolling dex save or ending his turn in the bonfire? Or does it say he rolls a dex save if he enters the bonfire and if he ends his turn in the bonifre? Meaning he would roll if he enters, and if he stays, he rolls again?

I'm not sure the wording means that a creature entering the bonfire has a choice between:
A. Rolling a Dex save
B. Ending his turn in the bonfire.

Or if it means he rolls a Dex save if he either:
A. Enters the bonfire.
B. Ends his turn while in the bonfire.

Or if it means creature enters the bonfire, and rolls a Dex save. On fail, he ends his turn there.

And also, in either case, I'm not sure what would happen if a creature starts his turn in the bonfire.

mellored

Jun 18, 2015 2:27:37

1: yes
2: nothing happens at the start of it's turn. it only takes damage again if it stays there, or leaves and walks back in.
3: roll as soon as it enters, but NOT a second time if it ends it's turn there. it does not affect the creatures movement in any way, so it can simply take damage and keep walking.

Byakugan01

Jun 18, 2015 5:40:09

Question 1 is not a real question.

There is no distinction between fire from something like a torch and/or fire created using magic. Some older editions made a distinction.

Falling in a pool of volcanic lava deals the exact same kind of damage as getting burned by a torch.

jaelis

Jun 18, 2015 7:21:36

You could plausibly have a creature that is immune to non-magical fire. I don't think they do, but at least hypothetically it could matter.

zingbobco000

Jun 18, 2015 8:18:58

Crimlet wrote:

Bloodscythe

Jun 18, 2015 9:43:48

It's definitely "magical" fire. It doesn't require fuel, and a DM could even say it burns during a downpour as long as you concentrate.

Coredump00

Jun 18, 2015 10:53:58

Some stuff is easy

1) It is magical fire

2) It does nothing at the start of a turn

3) The first time a creature enters the fire (per turn), it must save or take damage.

4) If a creature ends it turn in the fire, it must save or take damage

What we don't know.... is if 3) and 4) can happen on the same turn.

So a creature enters the fire, he must save or take damage. He stops moving. At the end of his turn...does he need to make another save...??? I don't think it is clear. My impression is only one save per turn.... but I can't swear to that....

Helnam

Jun 18, 2015 11:15:34

Coredump00 wrote:

(Reply to #8)

Bloodscythe

Helnam wrote:

#10

OoftaMeg

Jun 18, 2015 12:56:44

Personally I wouldn't call the fire magical, there is no "magic fire" defined anywhere in the book and it causes all sorts of questions.

How would magic fire interact with vulnerabilities, resistances and immunities? Can a magic fire cause non-magic fire? What about the light from a magic fire?

I don't understand why it would matter. If magical fire is somehow different than regular fire then mummies are no longer vulnerable to it and salamanders are no longer immune, etc. If it is identical, then it has no affect so why add the complexity?

Just my two coppers.

(Reply to #10)

Bloodscythe

OoftaMeg wrote:

(Reply to #11)

OoftaMeg

Bloodscythe wrote:

(Reply to #12)

Bloodscythe

OoftaMeg wrote:

(Reply to #3)

Crimlet

Byakugan01 wrote:

(Reply to #10)

Crimlet

OoftaMeg wrote:

#16

jaelis

Jun 18, 2015 14:09:42

What is the difference you see between whether it is magical or not?

Edit- You're looking at Control Flames, I guess? That's just going to be up to the DM I think. I guess I wouldn't let it work, but its a good question.

#17

Crimlet

Jun 18, 2015 14:12:45

Some things seem to be clearer. But i'm still a bit unclear about the it being regular or magical.

Also it says"Any creature in the bonfire’s space when you cast the spell must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 1d8 fire damage. A creature must also make the saving throw when it enters the bonfire’s space for the first time on a turn or ends its turn there."

The first part "must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 1d8 fire damage". It would mean that if it fails, the consequence is that it takes the 1d8 fire damage.

The second part "must also make the same saving throw when it enteres the bonfire's space for the first time on a turn or ends its turn there". Does it mean that if it fails, the consequence is that it ends its turn there? I can't seem to figure out if it means:

A. Make saving throw if it enters the space AS WELL AS make saving throw if it ends turn in the space.

B. Like the first sentence which says succeed or X, enter the space, suceed, or else it ends the turn in the space if it fails.

The wording is confusing.

So far, I've been playing:

- Non magical flame. Thus all effects from Control Flames can work on Bonfire.

- Creature makes saving throw if it is cast on him, he enters it, he ends his turn in it. No save throw made if he starts his turn in it.

#18

Coredump00

Jun 18, 2015 15:19:25

Of course it is magical. It was created by magic, it continues by magic, it can be released by magic. You don't get much more magical than that.

Control flames will not work on it.

OTOH, it may also cause a non-magical fire to start if there is any fuel nearby, and *that* fire can be controled via Control Flame or anything else that can only effect non-magical fires.

(Reply to #17)

Coredump00

Crimlet wrote:

#20

OoftaMeg

Jun 18, 2015 17:01:44

I guess it depends on how you view conjuration working. The way I look at it, you are not creating the fire - it is being conjured from somewhere. IMHO the thing you conjure is not inherently magical unless it specifically says so.

I'm not saying my opinion is correct. I can't find anything that would give a definitive answer.

My suggestion? Do what's fun for your group.

(Reply to #19)

zingbobco000

Coredump00 wrote:

#22

jaelis

Jun 18, 2015 17:37:13

zingbobco000 wrote:

#23

Crimlet

Jun 18, 2015 17:54:23

jaelis wrote:

#24

Crimlet

Jun 18, 2015 17:59:00

Coredump00 wrote:

#25

jaelis

Jun 18, 2015 18:04:19

Another way of saying the second part would be:

A. If you enter the space, you must succeed at the saving throw or else you end your turn in the space.

This is completely different from interpreting the sentence to say:

B. If you enter the space or if you end your turn in the space, you must succeed at the saving throw, or take damage.

The consensus seems to be saying that the sentanc means A. Although the first time I read it, I thought it meant B.

#26

Coredump00

Jun 18, 2015 20:49:27

No one is saying it means A. In fact I have repeatedly stated the exact opposite.

IN fact the post he quoted said the exact opposite.

#27

Tempest_Stormwind

Jun 18, 2015 21:00:56

Crimlet wrote:

#28

Crimlet

Jun 19, 2015 9:34:38

Tempest_Stormwind wrote: