Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 SilentSin Oct 14, 2014 2:13:25	What does Create Thrall do? I honestly have no idea how to rule its effects in game.   Warlock - Great Old One - 14th level Feature - Create Thrall - "You charm a dude"   Charmed Condition - Can't attack the charmer or target them with harmful stuff, and the charmer has advantage on Charisma checks to interract socially with the creature.   So what does the feature actually do? - At first glance, it sounded like it would basically let you permanently dominate a creature, but advantage on charisma checks falls far short of that. Anything you can get a thrall to do, a bard could also convince them to do, just with a lower success rate. - Should I let my players use regular charisma checks to convince a random dude from town to follow them into a dungeon (so that this feature can actually work)? - How hard should such a check be? - If you knock someone out in an alley and thrall them, then wait for them to wake up, shouldn't they still remember that you beat them up? Would you follow someone who just beat you up into a life threatening dungeon just because of his winning smile? What if he was intimidating you instead? - If you can charisma check people into your minions that easily (even if only on a natural 20), then a level 5 or so party could spend a night beating up thugs to get a couple of minions by morning. Does that sound reasonable? I'm not sure.
#2 Sands666 Oct 14, 2014 4:46:09	This ability is nasty. First, you instantly charm anyone incapacitated that you can touch. No save, not someone who has to necessarily be knocked unconscious, someone who is incapacitated by any means. In addition to that, the individual is charmed until someone casts a remove curse spell. So until someone notices the victim is charmed, and has the means to remove a curse that I doubt the victim is convinced they have, they're under your charm forever. On top of this I don't even see a limitation to the amount of victims! Are they dominated? No. But you can telepathically communicate with your new friend who loves you anywhere on the same plane. Why does everyone in that small village love that nasty, vile Warlock you ask? Hmnm I wonder why... It's not dominate but imagine the political implications! Hey King, he wizards, he warriors, these adventurers are harassing me and you know me man, I'm your friend, please help me!
(Reply to #2) SilentSin	Sands666 wrote:
#4 mellored Oct 14, 2014 5:33:52	A level 14 bard (with expertise) would be better at convincing.  Of course, you can multi-class.   Still, it's at-will, no save, and last indefinatly, and you can convince it to do things remotely.  So it's still failry nice.     As for what the DC is, it depends on what you ask the person to do. Asking someone to murder his beloved wife would auto-fail. Asking a servant to put poision in food of someone he hated would be fairly easy.   IMO: It's best used would be to find an BBEG's servant, charm it, and then telepathicly ask it to spy.
#5 Timborama Oct 14, 2014 5:36:36	Also remember you can play cool mind games on the creature via Dream spell and also the fact you can use Telepathy on it while it is ANYWHERE on the same plane...   Essentially, you can get this being to worship you before it even sees you...   In fact, you can get it to believe that you and your party group are holy crusaders come to save it. Who says the Thrall has to inherently know that you're the one controlling him? Because he feels compelled to not attack you? Easily explain that away by planting the thought that you're a prophet of some sort...   (in summary, this is a HUGE RP ability that wasn't given any direct mechanics because of its possible implications. I like it being a Charm instead of a Dominate so it can be used, but is harder to abuse this way. Obviously this power varies from table-to-table and character-to-character, due to different DMs, player playstyle, and character motivations)
(Reply to #4) SilentSin	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #5) SilentSin	Timborama wrote:
#8 mellored Oct 14, 2014 6:37:42	SilentSin wrote:
#9 2Chlorobutanal Oct 14, 2014 8:33:42	The "charmed" condition imposed by Create Thrall also prevents the target from intentionally attacking you (the Warlock).  If you create a "thrall" during combat, perhaps on a sleeping, stunned or held target, the charmed creature cannot attack the Warlock until the effect ends.
#10 mellored Oct 14, 2014 8:53:12	2Chlorobutanal wrote:
#11 Sands666 Oct 14, 2014 21:29:06	Oh... well in that case I think this is a pretty weak ass power for 14th level. Some charm affects have the added bonus that while you are charmed you must obey all the creature/persons commands. Maybe this ability can combine with another warlock power to make it a little bit nastier, but if not I would add the "must obey while charmed" part. Honestly, one of my players who was playing a warlock in my campaign requested to change his character after he looked further into what the class gives. We were not really all that impressed and I allowed him to play a sorcerer. When I first read Create Thrall I thought you could charm multiple people, and thought "finally a Warlock power that makes them seem formidable". But there goes that.    SilentSin wrote:
#12 paulstrait Oct 14, 2014 22:20:31	It kind of depends on how you understand the warlock-thrall relationship to work.  Does the thrall know that you've got him under a pseudo-mind control (perhaps a deception check, with advantage naturally)?  If so s/he will probably be angry and so most persuasion DCs will be impossible (but even in this case, intimidation ought to be easier than usual because you can beat/torture it and it can't fight back, at best it can just run away).   If it doesn't -- that is, if its self understanding of why it is unwilling to attack you is that it loves you dearly -- then, persuasion DCs should be unusually low.  Combined with advantage, that is a killer.  It is impossible to set a persuasion DC without taking into account the context of the relationship between the persuader and persuadee, so it isn't like this question can be avoided...