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| #1Ninja_FerretJan 06, 2015 12:25:08 | One of my players pointed out to me today the wording on the Darkness spell. PG 230 phb. " If any of this spells area overlaps with an area of light created by a spell of 2nd level or lower, the spell that created the light is dispelled." How would you interpret it? Would it dispell Flaming sphere? Fire bolt? Flame blade? Guiding bolt? Light? Magic missile? Produce Flame? Scorching ray? All these spells create some sort of light. A flame that would produce more light to touch the edge of the darkness.
Example Produce flame says it sheds light out to 20' all together. So any produced flame would be dispelled if it touched the edge of a darkness spell? What about flaming sphere? Same thing creates light out from it. no flaming spheres within 40 feet of a darkness spell or it gets dispelled? i throw in the others that dont say they produce a actual light sorce but it is still the same. A glowing flaming ball is thrown at someone. It has to shed some light correct? Or else it is just a ball of darkness. any of that light gets dispelled? |
| #2SaelornJan 06, 2015 15:20:07 | It's kind of weird, but Produce Flame doesn't create light; it creates flame, and the flame creates light.
Darkness would only dispel a spell if it directly creates light, without a source. |
| #3OoftaMegJan 06, 2015 15:38:22 | I feel like I'm getting deja vu all over again, but darkness would surpress the light from a spell that causes flame but it would not surpress the spell itself.
In a similar fashion it would not put out a torch, but it would surpress the light of a torch. |
| #4ModusPonensJan 06, 2015 16:47:06 | Yeah, just stick to the script. It blocks light, not fire. |
| #5BRJNJan 06, 2015 17:39:31 | Also, the Darkness field has to cover the source of the flame before the 'other half' of the illumination goes dark too. Barely-touching spheres of Light and Dark will not wipe each other out.
Tangent: there is a spell from Testament (Biblical D&D) called Light Before Thee, Darkness Behind. So you don't have to advertise your presence in all directions, just half of them. |
| #6Macv12Jan 06, 2015 18:12:10 | Whether it makes sense for Darkness to extinguish a Flaming Sphere depends on the metaphysics of your universe. If "light" is the product of the "Radiance" force, which a fundamental element of the universe in the same way as fire or electricity, and Flaming Sphere requires a high concentration of Radiance to work, and Darkness destroys Radiance, then it could destroy Flaming Sphere. It would require a fairly complicated explanation to justify why Darkness stops Flaming Sphere, but not Firebolt or Sacred Flame, but it could be done.
Point being: Darkness is pretty clear that if there's an area of light created by a spell, that spell is dispelled. That would include Flaming Sphere. I don't think it would include things with no mechanical area of light, like Firebolt (you could have it be visible without making enough light to read by, because it's magic; or you could say it can't be "dispelled" because it has no duration, or that it never "overlaps" with Darkness mechanically because it has no area), but if you decide that Firebolt emits an area of light then yeah, it should apply.
Though Saelorn's point is a good one, that many spells create a thing that emits light as a secondary effect, and you could construe the light as not being "from a spell" in that case. But then the wording for Light and Faerie Fire becomes almost identical, so Faerie Fire should be destroyed by Darkness rather than suppressed, while Dancing Lights would be suppressed instead of destroyed. That seems weird to me.
Personally, I would probably rule on the basis of whether the effect is intended to produce light or not. If it's something like Daylight that is meant to directly oppose Darkness, it is destroyed (depending on slot levels used to cast). If it's a flaming sword, the light is blocked, but the enchantment remains (maybe weakened while in the Darkness?). But if I was in the mood for authoring some metaphysics, I would see the question "why does Darkness prevent Flaming Sphere but not Sacred Flame?" as an interesting challenge. It would probably make "darkness" a more foreboding and dramatic force if it gained more far-reaching implications like that. |
| #7UndrhilJan 06, 2015 19:00:08 | There is no difference in a spell that produces flame and a spell that produces light. Darkness dispels any spell which says it sheds light, as long as the spell is cast with a level 2 or lower spell slot, which produce flame and flaming sphere both do. So, if you cast one of those spells as a higher level spell slot, it won't be dispelled by Darkness. Note that Produce Flame, being a cantrip, will always be dispelled in this way. |
| #8Ganymede425Jan 06, 2015 20:34:42 |
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| #9MelendJan 06, 2015 22:03:06 | This interpretation of the rules is stretching basic English a bit, and obviously contradicts the intention of the rule. I strongly suspect it'll be reworded if an errata is released. Until then, I suspect most DMs will simply say that Darkness only dispels magic which specifically produces magical light.
This is a new edition, but Rule Zero is eternal. |
| #10Ninja_FerretJan 06, 2015 22:21:34 | The thing is the line states "If any of this spells area overlaps with an area of light created by a spell of 2nd level or lower, the spell that created the light is dispelled."
Which could have a few intentions. Lets look at it this way. "If any of this spells area (the darkness spell) over laps with an area of light created by a 2nd level spell or lower (flaming sphere is 2nd level) the spell that created the light is dispelled. (not the light of the spell, but the spell that created the light.)"
So reading this it means that if any light from any spell of 2nd level or lower touches any part of the darkness the whole spell is dispelled. So for flaming sphere it creates 20 feet of light and 20 feet of dim light. That is 40 feet of light all together. If any of that 40 feet of light touches the darkness spell it is dispelled. Doesnt say the light is dispelled.
Then I got to thinking that most things will produce some sort of light. Energy is pretty much light it will produce some. (say my warlock player is inside his darkness spell (yes he can see through it) And cast say Fire bolt. It creates a bolt of fire. Which should and would produce some sort of light. probably not much to mean anything but even a candle lighter or match gives off small amounts. cast that inside of a darkness spell. Would it just disolve before it gets cast?
Also from my eyes casting something at a higher level doesnt CHANGE the level of the spell. It just changes the slot you used to cast the spell. Meaning a 1st level spell is still 1st level if it uses a 2nd level slot. Unless someone can point me to the page where it states that the level of the spell changes with higher spell slots. book not on hand right now loaned it to a player.
I kinda see their view of darkness as a black hole of sorts that sucks any magical force of light into it that it touches. |
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| (Reply to #10)Undrhil |
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| #14DungeonKrusherJan 07, 2015 18:54:02 | How I read that rule: Darkness dispells the spell which creates an area of light if the Darkness touching the spell's light effect. There isn't a minimum (the Darkness needs to overlap, which could be five feet or five centimeters) but I believe the key to discovering which spells it can effect is in the "area of light" phrasing. Basically, I would have Darkness only dispel spells that have a certain effect (description) including a light source with a radius.
From your list, followed by descriptions from the PHB, and how I would rule: Flaming Sphere = "it sheds bright light in a 20-foot radius" = would be dispelled by Darkness Firebolt = no area of light described = would not be dispelled by Darkness Flame Blade = "the flaming blade sheds bright light in a 10-foot radius" = would be dispelled by Darkness Light = "the object sheds bright light in a 20-foot radius" = would be dispelled by Darkness Magic Missile = no area of light described = would not be dispelled by Darkness Produce Flame = "flame sheds bright light in a 10-foot radius" = would be dispelled by Darkness
Here's the kicker: Guiding Bolt = "dim light glittering on the target" = I would say that it covers the darkness, but since it is not an "area of light" spell, it does not dispell the spell.
If the effects of the spell caused a fire, then the Darkness would put out the light from the fire, but not necessarily the spell. To go deeper: Flaming Sphere can catch something on fire AND has the 20-foot radius. If the Darkness touches that 20-foot radius at all, the Flaming Sphere would be dispelled. However, if the Sphere started a fire as it moved, and the Darkness touched the fire OUTSIDE of the 20-radius, the fire light would go out but both spells would keep functioning.
This seems to me as a clear cut "because magic" reasoning; magic is where I suspend a majority of my physics and reality. |
| #15WizardVJan 09, 2015 20:28:55 | +1 to DungeonKrusher |
| #16jonathonhawkeJan 10, 2015 19:09:36 | The spells in the PHB of level 2 or lower whose descriptions include light in an area (i.e., an "area of light") are: Branding Smite (target sheds dim light in 5' r)
A darkness spell whose area overlaps any of these areas would dispel the spell. |