Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Locksley Dec 28, 2014 16:26:00	Since the Guidance spell requires Verbal and Somatic components to cast, can a character currently engaged in a conversation with an adversary use the Guidance canptrip on themselves to improve the performance a Charimsa (deception) check?  I ask because, while you are in the middle of your "cover-up", you would also have to speak and gensture (even if the gesture is just touching your shoulder) for the spell to take effect.  Should the DM have you roll a stealth check to speak the Verbal component unnoticed?  Are you allowed to 'whisper' Verbal aspects of a spell?  Is this something that most DMs will just hand-wave away and allow?    In general, how should Guidance and Deception work together?   Thanks
#2 mellored Dec 28, 2014 17:20:10	Any verbal and somatic component are pretty obvious IMO.  You can't slip power word kill casually into a conversation.  You generally can't secretly attack with a sword either.   That said, i don't consider it paticularly flashy either.  You could potentially run to the bathroom and cast it, then come back.  Since it last a little while.  But you need to be out of ear shot, and behind a wall. Or take 2 levels of sorcerer for subtle metamagic.  Then you can cast most spells in the middle of conversation.
#3 Stormborn20 Dec 28, 2014 19:40:51	They would see that you are casting a spell.  A particularly knowledgeable observer might even identify it as Guidance.  But they would have no way of knowing that you are using it to enhance your deception.
#4 Novacat Dec 28, 2014 20:45:39	If the subject of a Bluff roll is inclined to be suspicious of the party, casting a spell in the middle of the conversation will undoubtedly increase the DC of the check by more than the Guidance will help, even assuming the NPC isn't able to identify the specific spell being cast.
#5 Hibiki54 Dec 29, 2014 0:38:30	Locksley wrote:
#6 bonethug0108 Dec 29, 2014 0:39:58	I would rule that you have to make a Deception check if you are trying to mix it in with normal speech and gestures.   So in your scenario you'd have to make a Deception check to cast the spell unnoticed, and then make another Deception check to bluff whoever you are trying to bluff.
#7 iserith Dec 29, 2014 6:18:04	Locksley wrote:
#8 iserith Dec 29, 2014 6:25:36	Hibiki54 wrote:
#9 guachi Dec 29, 2014 15:49:08	How can someone tell that you are casting a spell?   Do you, as a DM, rule that spell casting is just that obvious? In my longest 2e campaign, I had all my V,S,M components written down and not all of the material components were what was listed in the rule book. Some (most) of my spells had multiple ways to cast them. My character was a Bard and most of the spells were Illusion, Charm, or Alteration spells. Being a Bard and telling a story and then obviously casting a spell kind of ruins the effect. So does obviously casting an illusion spell. We were in a very low magic campaign and I went 3 years with no other players realizing I ever cast a spell. I just wove the casting (complete with S & M components!) into my RP and the DM was smart enough to realize what spell I wanted to cast and narrated what happened.   I'd imagine casting a Guidance cantrip would be no more obvious than making a short prayer to your God. Consider Psalm 32:8 - I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye. Make a sign of the cross and, bingo, that's your Guidance cantrip. I'd much rather have my players say the prayer and the table and make the appropriate gestures (probably isn't a sign of the cross) and then touch the affected party then say "I cast Guidance on Bob".
#10 bonethug0108 Dec 29, 2014 16:23:31	If you read the verbal and somatic component descritptions, it's would be pretty obvious you are doing SOMETHING strange. You have to chant words with a particular combination of sounds and a specific pitch and resonance. The hand gestures are forceful or intricate.   To hide either of those as "normal" conversation/hand movements would be very difficult.   Edit: And if you say that neither is obvious signs of something, that makes the subtle metamagic feature completely useless and also throws off some of the basic conceptions of spell casting built into the system.
(Reply to #8) Hibiki54	iserith wrote:
#12 iserith Jan 03, 2015 8:17:48	Hibiki54 wrote:
#13 guachi Jan 03, 2015 10:14:05	I wish I could find the link, but someone posted what one of his players said to some Orcs he was trying to persuade. It was only one or two sentences but it was a rousing bit of speechifying. The DM basically said "When I saw the look on the other players' faces, I knew the persuasion succeeded" I assume the character had a decent Charisma and was proficient in Persuasion already. In that case, just let them succeed.   Now if the character was an 8 Charisma Elf wearing a t-shirt that said "I kill Orcs 4 fun" I might adjudicate it by saying "You inspire the Orcs... to kill you"