Disintegrate dusts you when you hit 0 hit points. Duids, Barbs and Orcs can resist hitting 0 hp. Do these abilities circumvent disintegrate ?
Yes, I'd say the class abilities prevent you from actually hitting 0 hp. (Wild shape is anyway moot, since it doesn't matter if the animal form is dusted.)
You will almost certainly see DM differences on this.
I'd say strict rules parsing makes disintegrate lethal, but I can see where people would rule the other way, esp on Druids (on Barbarians being disintegrated seems to satisfy 'dying outright').
I'd be with Jaelis on saying that the abilities prevent you actually falling to 0 hit points (you drop to 1 instead for the half-orc or barbarian, and revert for the druid), though the druid case is a bit unclear, since you do drop to 0 hit points in beast form.
All the relevant traits/features would not prevent Disintegrate from "killing outright" at 0 HP.
The half-orc trait allows you to remain at 1 HP, it isn't automatic; and, it is only if the "0 HP" status does not result in death (which is a result of Disintegrate - indeed, a death which can only be reversed by special means: True Ressurection or Wish).
The Barbarian feature also is limited to not "dying outright".
The Druid's Wild Shape is only relevant when the "excess" damage brings the Druid's normal form to 0 HP as well; at which point, the Druid dies outright (a pile of fine gray dust).
lawrencehoy wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
You're still an inanimate pile of gray dust; that's dead. None of the traits/features prevents you from reaching 0 HP; they all get triggered by that condition, at which point the point is moot: the target is a pile of gray dust.
lawrencehoy wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Before those features can come into effect, you have to resolve the attack of the spell, which includes damage and any remaining effect. By the time to features come into play or would activate, the creature has been disintegrated by the spell. It simply is no longer possible for them to apply.
Noctaem wrote:
What's the actual text on the barb feature? I thought it was something like "When you would drop to 0 hp, you instead..." If that's right then I don't see why you would actually drop to zero before the ability triggers.
jaelis wrote:
Thanks. The "instead" says to me that you don't actually ever drop to zero, so I keep my position that disintegrate never triggers. (Basically the ability works like an interrupt.) But YMMV!
All you need to do is decide whether disintegrating kills you outright or not. If it does, you're dust, if it doesn't, you're tough enough to avoid going to pieces.
Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:
So when the spell hits you and deals damage, it internally checks to see if you are at 0 HP, this is done as part of resolving damage and BEFORE the features apply because you can't have them interrupt each other as part of the rules. Which is why it also has to say that if the target dies outright it can't bring you back. This is the reason why, the features CANNOT interrupt things that cause you to die outright. For example being dealt your full HP in damage beyong 0 hit points causes you to die outright. Being disintegrated because you were dealt enough damage by this spell causes you to die outright. I'm sure there's more examples.
If the feature stated what jaelis suggested above. I wouldn't be saying this of course. However as they are written, if you get disintegrated you don't get to come back. You cannot invalidate the spell's effects with these features, if part of the spell resolution says that when you drop to 0 you're turned to dust, that's what happens. You don't get to be turned to dust by the spell resolution then form back with 1 hp. You MUST resolve the effects of the attack before the features can be applied. Part of the effects of the attack is that you're disintegrated and you must use specific means to come back to life. Specific beats general. Resolution order for spell effects also agrees that you must resolve all the effects of the attack before you can then apply things that trigger off being reduced to 0 hit points unless they specifically say that they interrupt that resolution. These features do not, that's why they can't interrupt dying outright for whatever the reason.
Someone should really send a tweet.
I'd think I'm assuming that it's talking about killing you outright with hit point damage, since the ability itself works based on your hit point total (and the PHB section on dropping to 0 hit points covers instant death as a particular topic, making it a likely thing for the abilities in question to use).
Disintegration is more like a carrier effect that kills you if you're already at the point of being damaged to 0 hit points, while relentless rage and relentless endurance stop you taking that damage.
As I said earlier in the thread, and a few others have said too, I think the phrase killed outright is referring to the dying outright term involving death due to massive damage, found in the PHB. I agree with the people that in common usage, disintegrate would be considered to kill someone outright, but I think the rules really are referring to massive damage by specifically using the term killed outright.
I guess it just needs clarification for me for me to be 100 percent sure.
The question in case someone is willing to post on twitter is: "If half-orc is reduced to 0 HP by disintegrate, do they have 1 hp or become dust per spell?" That should give us a good answer.
Half-Orc Relentless Endurance: When you are reduced to 0 hitpoints but not killed outight, you can drop to 1 hit point instead.
Disintegrate: Deals 10d6+40 force damage. If this damage reduces the target to 0 hit points, it is disintegrated ... The creature can be restored to life only by means of a true resurrection or wish spell.
You cannot be restored to life unless you are dead. Disintegrate does not allow Relentless Endurance to work because the character is "killed outright". Normal death saving throw is bypassed as per Disintegrate rules.
Omnilicious wrote:
jaelis wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
jaelis wrote:
I'm convinced. Orcs don't get dusted, RAW.
Omnilicious wrote:
jaelis wrote:
jaelis wrote:
Omnilicious wrote:
jaelis wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Massive damage ( damage that reduces you to zero and then does an amount equal to your full HP total ) is exactly the only thing that stops these features. That is where the term killed outright comes from. I am truly surprised that this came up. It's the whole reason I said that I don't think these other things qualify necessarily.
From the PHB
"Dropping to 0 Hit Points
When you drop to 0 hit points, you either die outright or fall unconscious, as explained in the following sections.
Instant Death
Massive damage can kill you instantly. When damage reduces you to 0 hit points and there is damage remaining, you die if the remaining damage equals or exceeds your hit point maximum. For example, a cleric with a maximum of 12 hit points currently has 6 hit points. If she takes 18 damage from an attack, she is reduced to 0 hit points, but 12 damage remains. Because the remaining damage equals her hit point maximum, the cleric dies."
Notice this is where it says you die outright. Not in disintegrate. These are the rules I was referring to, and this is the instance of dying outright that I thought the features in question ( including poor Undying Sentinel that is neglected ) were referring to.
People keep saying disintegrate kills you outright, but the actual terminology is from the above mentioned Dropping to 0 Hit Points section. I am not saying that it cannot be counted as dying outright, merely that it does not say you die outright, like the massive damage does.
Relentless seems to have the intent of it being that the Half-Orc or Barbarian can shrug off going unconcious (the RAW is very simply written though), not for avoiding death regardless of the cause of said death.
Personally I'd rule disintegrate isnt avoided by relentless or any other similar abilities, though I would be unlikely to use it agaisnt PC's anyway.
Though it does seem as it would fall more into the DM's call as many rules are in 5th Ed.
Lucas_Blackstone wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Lucas_Blackstone wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:
I find it absolutely staggering that being turned to dust and restricted in what ways you are capable of being returned to life is being interpretted as anything other than "dying outright."
I also don't see how anyone can fail to see the inconsistency between letting these features apply against disintegrate, but not against damage since the process for both to resolve are identical:
- get reduced to zero hit points by damage
- be turned to dust or check to see if remaining damage is equal or greater to maximum hit points.
- see that you have died, and thus cannot be at 1 hp instead of 0 hp.
brettlangbdl wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:
Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Here's how I apply the rules:
Disintegrate hits you for X amount of force damage. If it drops you to 0 hp, you are disintegrated. But AS you are reduced to 0 hp, abilities that put you at "1 hp instead", mean when all is said and done, you didn't drop to 0 hp. you drop to 1 hp instead. Since you end up with 1 hp, not 0, you are not turned to dust.
You're only dead outright if you actually end with 0 hp. But certain abilities (barbarian and half-orc) have a chance of preventing you from ending with 0 hp. You end up with 1 hp instead.
And the way I handle druids is your animal form is reduced to 0 hp, but then you revert to your standard form, and you continue to take damage from the spell, and if after all is said and done, you end at 0 hp, you turn to dust. If you end up with more than 0 hp, you aren't turned to dust. Your hp while in an animal form is basically your animal form's hp + your hp total prior to changing shape. Only after losing all of those hp do you "drop to 0".
Here's a basic question:
If you hit a barbarian or orc with a weapon attack, and it "drops to 0 hp" but its ability has it drop to 1 hp instead, do you narrate that this character fell to the ground unconscious, and incapacitated, and drops its weapon since it hit 0 hp, but then springs back to its feet, conscious and with weapon in hand since it ends at 1 hp?
I'd say the barbarian/orc is never treated as having reached 0 hp, except to trigger its ability to end at 1 hp instead, unless this triggered ability fails, because its ability, if successful, literally says it has 1 hp instead.
attempt #2 because forum is crapping out on me (sorry if this is a multi-post, I can't see the other I just tried to make)
Bloodscythe wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
So again, let's use the half-orc with 10 current hp, and 10 max hp.
If this character is hit for 12 damage, which reduces it to 0 hp, but doesn't kill it outright per Instant Death, and it uses its racial ability to drop to 1 hp instead, do you narrate that it falls to the ground unconscious, incapacitated and drops its weapon, then jumps to its feet with its weapon in hand?
Or does the orc stay "alive and conscious" the entire time?
The way I read Disintegrate, the "turn to dust" feature of the spell is a consequence of dropping to 0 hp. But this character doesn't drop to 0 hp. It drops to 1 hp instead. So as far as I'm concerned, it's "alive and conscious" the entire time. The spell only disintegrates the dying.
So do you believe the racial feature is restoring the creature back to life, or that it never died in the first place, and instead remained at 1 hp?
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Ok but bloodscythe you're interrupting the resolution of the spell attack, which the edition does not allow, in order to trigger another game element to stop someone from being affected by the full effects of the spell. What you should be doing is this:
1. Half-orc with 20 hp is hit 20 damage by disintegrate.
2. Disintegrate does a check as part of the effects of the spell to see if the orc is at 0 hp. Which he is.
3. Disintegrate reduces the half orc to ash. Also states the only ways to bring back the orc.
4. spell is resolved.
5. Half orc racial checks hp after spell attack is resolved. Orc dead. racial does not trigger because it can't due to 1. The orc being dead and 2. The spell specifically stating the means that the orc can be brought back.
Lucas_Blackstone wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Dwarfslayer wrote:
Wouldn't your approach to disintegrate also mean that a druid in the form of a low hp animal also be killed instantly by the spell?
You'd first reduce the druid's animal form to 0 hp, then turn it to dust by resolving the spell before allowing the druid to revert to its original form and hps prior to shapeshifting.
I don't do this either.
First, I have the spell deal its damage, which then might revert the druid to its original form, and may even reduce its original form's hps. Then, after reverting the druid to its original form, if the overflow damage still manages to reduce the druid to 0 hp, it is disintegrated.
Or you can even rule that the animal form drops to 0 hp and turns to dust, and the dust reverts to the druid's original form. The animal would need a resurrection or wish to be restored to life, but the dead animal no longer exists and is now a living druid.
I'd do the same ruling for polymorph/disintegrate.
If you polymorph a person into a beast, then reduce it to 0 hp, it reverts to its original form as disintegrate is resolving, and no longer having 0 hp, isn't turned to dust.
If you don't rule this way, then can't the Tarrasque be slain by simply turning it into a harmless animal and disintegrating it? Really, any creature that isn't immune to polymorph can be instantly slain. Just turn it into a creature with a low dexterity, or just have a monk friend stun it so it automatically fails its save against disintegrate.
I'd hate to think that all you have to do to destroy Orcus is polymorph it into a sheep and disintegrate it. Granted, it has 3 auto-saves and advantage to save against spells, but still, seems like a pretty good tactic. Hit it with 3 lower lvl spells to burn through its saves then hit it with polymorph until it takes.. then stun it, and disintegrate. Seems anti-climactic.
If the damage from Disintigrate is not sufficient to kill outright the Half-Orc/Barbarian, then they never drop to 0 HP. If they do not drop to 0 HP, then they do not turn to dust. Ruling otherwise allows a Druid to be instanly killed when thier WIld Shape is reduced to 0 HP, regardless of how many HP they have left in thier normal form. Unless Wild Shape is temp HP (i dont remember) in which case I'd say yeah, it trumps Relentless X.
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
My thoughts and how I'd rule it at the table:
Disintergration kills you outright if you're reduced to zero hitpoints. Therefore, relentless and relentless rage do not meet all of the conditions to reduce the character to just one hitpoint. These racial and class features require being reduced to 0 hitpoints but not being killed outright. One cannot not argue that the condition of being disintergrated doe not "kill you outright." These specific class and racial features must be applied once the complete damage is determined after the failed dex saving throw. The features don't interrrupt the determination of the effect (rolling, totalling and applying the damage amount), those features are applied after the effects are fully calculated.
Bloodscythe wrote:
Ghost_Gallus wrote:
Wild shape and polymorph do not operate the same way than the half-orc and barbarian features in question.
Specifically, wild shape and polymorph both include "or dies" in the clauses of what returns you to your normal shape - that means that an effect like disintegrate, or even taking massive damage, would drop the character to 0 hp, cause them to die (such as by being turned to dust), and then they would return to their normal form and hp total.
While both the half-orc and barbarian features specifically limit themselves from functioning if the character should die.
How these two differently worded effects work should, since that is the point of different wording, be run differently: wild shape and polymorph trumping death even from being turned to dust, but death trumping the half-orc and barbarian features even if from being turned to dust.
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Bloodscythe, since when are we allowing a game element (that doesn't specifically say it can) to interrupt another game element mid resolution? Counterspell can because it specifically says it can. Shield can because it specifically says it can. These features do not. So why are you allowing them to stop the resolution of the effect of disintegrate, stopping the disintegration part, to apply another game element as an interrupt? You simply can't do that.
Noctaem wrote:
Ghost_Gallus wrote:
jaelis wrote:
jaelis wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Oh, and regading wildshape, I hadn't seen this from twitter
Q: Wildshaped druid gets hit with PWK > reverts > dead or alive?
Rodney Thompson: Dead. PWK does not deal damage; it causes death if the target has a certain number of hit points.
Q: ...And does death not revert the Druid back to form with its original HP?
Rodney Thompson: It reverts physically, sure, but the druid is dead...
Noctaem,
The Legendary Save argument actually validates your position (and those of us who are saying relentless rage, etc. do not prevent the disintergration). When does the creature make the determination to use it's legendary save? "If it fails the saving throw." It's at the stage of whether it succeeded or failed against the spell before the spell effect is determined (rolling damage and/or applying the condition).
1. Spell is cast.
2. Creature fails its save.
3. Creature decides whether to invoke legendary save.
4. Spell effect determined after the results of the save is known.
jaelis wrote:
Gwaithador wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Gwaithador wrote:
jaelis wrote:
jaelis wrote:
The problem is you really have no basis to claim that you know the above check/resolution order is correct. It could just as easily be:
Disintegrate deals damage. Does this damage drop you to 0 HP? it does? Does this damage kill you outright? No? Disintegrate reduces you to ash because you're at 0 HP.
The order the checks + resolutions are done in can't be verified. And furthermore depending on the order, one element will no longer work. It's either you're reduced to ash and you can't use your feature to set yourself at 1 hp or you're set to 1 hp and you can't be reduced to ash. We need clarification from JC.
Noctaem wrote:
Jaelis,
I disagree with your interpretation.
The sentence reads:
"If you drop to 0 hitpoints while you're raging and don't die outright."
The saving throw and the case of the creature with the legendary save, is determined prior to rolling the damage of the spell. You have to know if the Dex save for the spell was made or failed before rolling and applying damage.
Rentless rage and endurance are applied after the effects of the spell are known (the save is failed, the damage is rolled). Disintergrate reduces the victim to ash, thus killing the victim. He has "died outright." Therefore, the required conditions of the features are not met. The damage total must be known before you apply these class features. In this case of this spell, being reduced to zero hitpoints has the specific effect of killing you outright by turning you into a fine gray dust easily taken care of by Bigby's Dusting Hand.
Bloodscythe wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Gwaithador wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Again, why would the barb and half orc features have automatic priority to resolve before the "reduced to ash" clause of the disintegrate spell comes into effect? You're assigning priority of sequence to these features for no other reason than bias. Take a step back and look at it. All 3 game elements trigger off the same thing except that the barb and half orc features have an extra restriction (can't die outright). But all 3 of them proc from being reduced to 0 HP. Why do the two features you seemingly prefer, have priority, over the one from the spell that is actually resolving?
Orethalion wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
jaelis wrote:
jaelis wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
jaelis wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
jaelis wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
I see both sides of this argument and think it could go either way.
So with all things being equal, I would go with Rule of Fun interpretation. Having a barbarian or half-orc glow green for an instant then hold himself (or herself) together through sheer badassery is awesome. On the flip side, if your Wizard just dusts the bad guy, yay for him! But if he almost dusts him and leaves the BBEG at 1 hit point, it give the rest of the group a chance to get in on the kill, which is a "Yay" for the whole party. Win-win.
Plus instant death effects are more harmful to PCs than they are to NPCs, so there is that too.
Yes LordTwig and I think the spell was designed with killing monsters in mind where there is no difference between 0 HP and death. For those who want to know what the RAI of the spell is when it is used on a PC, they will likely need WoTC clarification.
I like that 5e enourages the DM just to rule on this, and I would choose to rule that it dusts the Druid/Barbarian/Orc/Polymorphed who got reduced to 0 HP because I like that it can be used to specifically counter those abilities.
OB1 wrote:
jaelis wrote:
OB1 wrote:
jaelis wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
I thought pedantically over-parsing wording was a thing for previous editions?
LordCorwin wrote:
jaelis wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
El_Condoro wrote:
Yep, I went away and came up with one myself - it can be done.
The half-orc takes a fierce blow that would fell most others and momentarily blacks out. His strength and determination enable him to hold off unconsciousness and, though he staggers, he is able to remain upright. From a mechanical point of view the character has gone unconscious (0 hp) but only for a split second before recovering and ending the turn on 1 hp.
I sent this tweet to Jeremy Crawford. 140 characters is very limiting and it's the weekend so not guaranteed a reply.
@JeremyECrawford If a half-Orc with 50hp was hit by disintegrate for 60hp damage would its relentless endurance save it from becoming dust?
This looks like a clear response from Jeremy Crawford. Someone else's tweet but almost identical to mine. I hope it's not bad form to post someone else's tweet but anyway here it is.
@jeremyecrawford If disintegrate's damage reduces a half-orc to 0 hp, but doesn't kill outright, can their racial RE prevent turning to ash?
Jeremy Crawford added,
If disintegrate reduces you to 0 hp, you're disintegrated. That's a prime example of being killed outright.
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
El_Condoro wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
And we also had a tweet from the devs posted earlier in the thread (though not from JC specifically but he was included in the conversation) which stated that wildshape wins vs things that deal damage in order to kill a target but not things that kill as a direct effect like Power Word Kill. So disintegrate doesn't work and the druid simply reverts back to druid form vs PWK actually just kills the druid even if wildshaped. I don't 100% agree with that especially now that we have confirmed disintegrate beats those other 2 features, but whatever.
Noctaem wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
El_Condoro wrote:
I'm still disagreeing that the Wild Shape acts as an escape from disintergration.
I think the explanation about Powerword Kill was just that, an explanation for Powerword Kill, and extrapolating that the answer applies to Wild Shape vs. the spell Disintergrate is erroneous. I think it's taking the Powerword Kill explanation out of context.
Wild Shape's statement: "you automatically revert if you fall unconscious, dropt to 0 hit points, or die." Means, the magic that keeps you in the in that form ceases to function. Instead of a dead tweety bird, you've the dead druid. It would not prevent you from being disintergrated. If the spell reduces you to 0 hitpoints, you turn to a fine gray dust. Wild Shape would not allow you to escape that fate. Wild Shape and Poymorph are explaining that the magical effect keeping you transformed ends, and nothing more.
Again, I'd rule a Wild Shaped Druid killed by disintergration (reduced to zero hp as described by the spell) reverts to a pile of fine gray ash.
Noctaem wrote:
El_Condoro wrote:
El_Condoro wrote:
Druids who are using their Wild Shape feature do not get turned to dust, unless the excess damage is enough to drop them to 0 HP, because the Wild Shape dropping to 0 HP is not equal to the Druid dropping to 0 HP; and, it is the Druid that is the target of the Disintegrate spell, not the outward form that the Druid is manifesting. The Druid never ceases to be the Druid, it only manifests a different outward physical appearance/shape.
EDIT: The Wild Shape's HP are like Temporary HP for the Druid; damage always applies to the Temporary HP first, then to normal HP.
lawrencehoy wrote:
vonklaude wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
vonklaude wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
hey, Jeremy responded to my tweet. Seems Aaron was right. The spell has to be considered as a whole, rather than damage, then dusting.
Bloodscythe wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Since Power Word: Kill results in a reverted (dead) druid, and we know from the tweet that distintegrate does indeed count as "dying outright", it would seem clear that a druid whose wildshape form is reduced to zero HP by disintegrate results in a reverted (dead) druid.
Xetheral wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Xetheral wrote:
A lot of assumption for worrying that wildshape is broken because it makes a low level druid immune to disintegrate is missing the inverse I think. Should a high level druid who takes the shape of a raven be killed outright by a disintegrate even though they have more than enough hitpoints to otherwise survive a hit by the spell in their spellcaster form? Whichever way you go its not going to be "fair" to the other.
Bloodscythe wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
The Druid then reverts to its natural form. And no, it's natural form is not ash. It's natural form is whatever it was before it wildshaped.
This discussion is moot.
The rules clearly state that in the relevant cases, at 0 if not killed outright, you recover as described.
However, with the spell in question, at 0 you are dust and dead, and not only that, dead with only limited means of return.
None of the relevant class abilities listed will save a character against Disintegrate as written.
If as a DM you decide otherwise, you are in fact creating a House Rule and not involving yourself in rules interpretation.
For the point of argument, I interpret and translate legal language and indeed technical and procedural English as part of my job, so I would hope you can take what I say as sufficiently accurate and precise.
There are many instances of lack of clarity in the RAW for D&D 5th Edition. Please be assured that this isn't one of them.
That said, if you don't want it to work like that at your table, then that's entirely your call, but if you do make that call, then under which circumstances would you deem a target killed outright before these abilities kick in?
I certainly cannot think of even a handful off the top of my head...
Yunru wrote:
If you argue for the return of the Druid from disintegration you are arguing that a general rule covering many forms of death trumps a specific form of death with it's own rules for what can be used to return the target to life. As the rules also state specific trumps general, you would be breaking this rule to have the Druid return. The spell does not state that Druids alone get to ignore its limitations on methods of return, and nor should it. The Druid is ashes and the spell states quite clearly that the methods of return include x and y, none of which are the Druids shape change ability. You may choose to allow the Druid ability to trump the specifics of the spell, but you would be Houseruling at this point, and making an already borderline unbalanced ability unbeatable post event, when your Druid player uses the disintegrate ruling to avoid any form of death, no matter how final, as a get out of jail free card. Would you also allow wild shape to nullify the effects of a sphere of annihilation for instance? I wouldn't...
Noctaem wrote:
So if you get petrified in beast form, would you say the petrification ends when wild shape expires?
jaelis wrote:
I think people have missed the fact that I implied the druid that is disintegrated while in wild shape form turns from ashes to their normal form, which isn't ashes, but the rules don't say they aren't still dead and still only able to be returned to life as detailed in the disintegrate spell which killed them.
The rules also don't make it explicit that returning to normal form and hit point total prior to wild shape means being alive even if you reverted because you died.
My ruling on the matter is to have "you died" stick even after your body reverts to normal form because death is not called out as being avoided, while unconsciousness is called out.
Its also important to remember that being in wildshape form is *not* some kind of poppable immunity from death. If you are a druid with normally 20 hit points and you turn into a creature with 10 hit points. A hit that does 50 points of damage would still kill you regardless of any "protection" by being in an animal form.
Noctaem wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Omnilicious wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Omnilicious wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Exactly and considering that the spell specifically transforms the druid into a pile of ashes and lists the ONLY means that can be used to return the druid to life and wildshape IN NO WAY lists ways to circumvent those specific effects or return the druid from actual death there's no contradiction. If the druid is reduced to 0 but not outright killed by whatever is going on, he reverts and takes any remaining damage off his hp pool. But there's effects that bypass this, namely things like Power Word Kill and Disintegrate.
The only way the spell can reduce the Druid to ash is to drop the Druid to 0 HP; that does not happen when the Wild Shape is dropped to 0 HP; period. The Druid doesn't die unless the Druid is dropped to 0 HP. The Druid = the Wild Shape, the Wild Shape = the Druid; the Wild Shape is just a form the Druid is manifesting, that has an additional HP pool.
A Wild Shape does not die from HP damage; a Wild Shape is not a creature in and of itself, it is just the Druid in another form. Druids lose the Wild Shape when that pool of HP is dropped to 0 (or in the other ways specified). The Wild Shape rules do not force the Druid into unconsciousness (or death) when their Wild Shape drops to 0 HP because the Druid doesn't actually drop to 0 HP, unless the excess damage drops the Druid's normal HP to 0.
lawrencehoy wrote:
Omnilicious wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
jaelis wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Omnilicious wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Yunru wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Another possibility is that Wild Shape can't succeed in turning Druids back into their own form after a Disintegrate ashes their animal form. Imagine the Druid has gone up against a 20th level mage as a kitten, because that's her thing. (Maybe she's heard that Wild Shape trumps spells so she figures she's fine.) The mage succesfully casts Distintegrate on the kitten and it falls to 0. We need to finish processing Disintegrate before we process anything else, so now we have - NOT a kitten at 0 HP - but a pile of dust. The pile of dust is not a dead kitten or a dead Druid (that's why only True Rez or Wish work, no body) so when Disintegrate finishes resolving there is no valid trigger to revert the Druid to their own form. They're stuck without a body until a True Rez or Wish brings it back into being.
(Sidenote, the RAI I propose here relies on understanding True Rez as needing to work in its second mode - speak the creature's name - when ressurredting Disintegrated beings; i.e. there is effectively no remaining body. If you think that the ash still comprises a body, then that won't appeal to you.)
vonklaude wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Omnilicious wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Here's an interesting side-thought: if the druid doesn't revert from their kitten form, what happens to any magic items that might be melded into their form? Disintegrate doesn't normally affect magic items anyway, but just to be definitive, let's say that the druid has an artifact, like the sword of Kas.
It's kind of interesting to consider what should happen to the sword in all the various scenarios that have been proposed, since it tells you a bit about what has probably happened to the druid.
Bloodscythe wrote:
jaelis wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
But are they still actually turned into dust or are they just dead? And if they do turn to dust, what happens to a hypothetical case with the sword of Kas? I can think of a couple of possible ways it might resolve.
Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:
The stay alive abilities are no different than other abilities that trigger when other things happen.
If the abilities couldn't 'happen in response to damage happening' then you would be getting hit, then taking damage, then falling unconscious, then waking back up as you are healed 1 HP.....The abilities all say 'instead'.....instead of dropping to zero(then dusting), you are reduced to 1 hitpoint. If it was magic the gathering, you would call it a replacement effect.
Pretend there was a half orc zombie that kept his racial ability....normally when an undead reaches 0 hitpoints they are destroyed instantly....but if you knocked 1 to 0 hitpoints, it could first make its special saving throw to try and stay at 1 hitpoint, and then if that didnt save it it could trigger its orc racial trait...
Also, this is a pretty shitty thing to even try and pull on a PC...it's basically permadeath, so the rule of cool should totally be in effect here....make rulings that enhance the fun of the game. It is established that it is a pretty ambiguous rules interaction. You should err on the side of caution.
The stay alive abilities are no different than other abilities that trigger when other things happen.
If the abilities couldn't 'happen in response to damage happening' then you would be getting hit, then taking damage, then falling unconscious, then waking back up as you are healed 1 HP.....The abilities all say 'instead'.....instead of dropping to zero(then dusting), you are reduced to 1 hitpoint. If it was magic the gathering, you would call it a replacement effect.
Pretend there was a half orc zombie that kept his racial ability....normally when an undead reaches 0 hitpoints they are destroyed instantly....but if you knocked 1 to 0 hitpoints, it could first make its special saving throw to try and stay at 1 hitpoint, and then if that didnt save it it could trigger its orc racial trait...
Also, this is a pretty shitty thing to even try and pull on a PC...it's basically permadeath, so the rule of cool should totally be in effect here....make rulings that enhance the fun of the game. It is established that it is a pretty ambiguous rules interaction. You should err on the side of caution.
Byakugan01 wrote:
Byakugan01 wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Keep in mind that wild shape (and polymorph with it) is an oddity in that it is the only thing that applies overflow damage beyond 0.
For example if a 10th level druid with 70 HP turns into a brown bear with 34 hit points and fails a save on a Disintegrate spell, doing 70 damage.
The damage chews through the 34 HP of the bear and causes the druid to lose the form, the druid then continues to take the remaining 36 points of damage. to their own HP total.
If the druid had only 36 HP or fewer before they changed into the brown bear, sure they would be dust (while a bear or elven druid doesnt matter can you really tell bear grey dust from elf grey dust?) If the druid has more than 36 hp it just hurt a good chunk.
I guess the issue really only is a factor at the point that the Disintegrate spell does exactly the damage the form has thus reducing the form to 0 HP without the overflow damage, as rare as that would be.
Does bring up the question for power word kill however is it the druids HP, the forms HP or both that count to the 100 HP or less to be killed.
Loswaith wrote:
vonklaude wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Yunru wrote:
vonklaude wrote:
Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
You go from a creature to a pile of Ash. Is this the same kind of logical fallacy that said that being turned to ash can't possibly be killing you outright like earlier in the thread? Think for a moment please.
You keep bringing up Alter Form but then you don't post the text, you just claim a negative that makes you right. Post the text please, provide evidence of what you claim. Saying you're right over and over again doesn't make it so. We've provided text, rules, etc.. Do the same at the very least. Or is it that you're not posting it because you know you're wrong and doing so would just reveal that? I tried googling it "Atler Form 5e" and didn't find anything. Post the text you're talking about since you're making the claim. Provide evidence.
And druids, unless specifically stated to be, aren't Shapechangers (as in the subtype) which grants automatic success vs polymorph. You have to be actually granted that subtype by something. Simply changing into wildshape doesn't make you that subtype. Link the text that says druids have the subtype and the text that says shapechangers automatically succeed. You're making the claim, provide evidence.
Or don't do that, and get out of the discussion since you're just going to be a snarky douche.
Bloodscythe wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Victimize yourself all you want. lol
Noctaem wrote:
victimizing yourself doesn't either. Not posting any evidence for your claim doesn't either. and so on. I'm done playing this game with you, it's just a waste of time. You can have the last word since that's all you're left with now.
Noctaem wrote:
Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Not every little change is a new form.
Yunru wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Reading Wild Shape (PHB pg 66-67), there is an interesting issue in regards to disintegrate. Though the general effect of disintegrate is that if a creature is reduced to 0 HP then they are turned to ash, the specific effect of Wild Shape is that if you are reduced to 0 HP as what you changed into, any extra damage gets tacked on to your normal HP and then that gets reduced. It looks to me that it causes two checks to be made instead of one.
Example:
1) Druid A has 70 HP due to Wild Shape, fails the dex save vs disintegrate, damage is 80. Druid A loses all 70 HP from Wild Shape (it is just damage at this point) forcing him to 0 HP at which point you look at the specific rules for Wild Shape and see he is forced to shift to normal form where he takes the other 10. Druid A has more than 10 HP normally and was uninjured so disintegrate does not turn him to ash.
2) Druid B has 25 HP due to Wild Shape, fails the dex save vs disintegrate, damage is 80. Druid B loses all 25 HP from Wild Shape (it is just damage at this point) forcing him to 0 HP at which point you look at the specific rules for Wild Shape and see he is forced to shift to normal form where he takes the other 55. Druid B has less than 55 HP normally and was uninjured. Disintegrate reduces him to 0 HP at which point he now turns to ash.
General Rule: How Disintegrate affects creatures/people it reduces to 0 HP
Specific Rule: How Wild Shaped Druid handles being reduced to 0 HP
Alter Self does not figure into it.
Wild Shape has a specific rule that once you use Wild Shape, you take that form's hit points and Hit Dice. You have these until you return to your normal form. This means that it does not matter what other spells you use after this. No matter the transformation or anything else, once you take that form, you have those HP until you switch to the normal form. The same rule state that you will forcibly be switched to your normal form if you take more damage than your Wild Shape can handle. Until the druid in their normal form hits 0 HP, disintegrate is just damage, albeit a LOT of damage.
Think of it as another way, Wild Shape gives the druid extra HP. So a druid with 40 HP in normal form that Wild Shapes into a Brown Bear now essentially has 40(34) HP or 74 HP in total. Once the first 34 are gone, so is the Wild Shape. You are left with the 40 HP the druid has left before the druid is reduced to 0 HP. Reducing the Wild Shape to 0 HP is NOT reducing the character to 0 HP.
Koshinuke wrote:
Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Koshinuke wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Koshinuke wrote:
Or you could be a pile of dust with an ability that says...you went to 1 hitpoint instead, and thus couldnt have been dusted.
What if you are AT 0 hitpoints when disintegrate hits you? It isnt -reducing-you to 0 hitpoints since you are already at 0. (0 - X + X = 0). There is no negative damage UNLESS its more than your max hitpoints.
This is the situation according to what you are saying.
Wild Shape Druid, 70 HP with 50 HP normally
70 HP > hit with disintegrate which does 71 damage > Wild Shape hits 0 HP > Wild Shape drops > Druid takes 1 damage > Druid dies and turns to ash despite having 49 HP
Damage PHB pg 196
"You roll the damage die or dice, add any modifiers, and apply the damage to your target."
**This means you apply the damage to Wild Shape**
Druid PHB pg 67
"However, if you revert as a result of dropping to 0 HP, any excess damage is carried over to your normal form"
**This means you revert instantly to normal form upon reaching 0 HP in Wild Shape**
The RAW states if you drop to 0 HP in Wild Shape you revert to normal and then take any excess damage. That is RAW. You have to prove that there is a rule that states that disintegrate interrupts this very specific rule of Wild Shape hitting 0 HP. Because the RAW is very specific about what happens.
So my reading of raw is:
Wild Shape Druid, 70 HP with 50 HP in normal form
Hit with disintegrate > fails roll > caster rolls 71 damage > Wild Shape druid takes 70 damage causing Wild Shape to drop > Instant reversion to normal form, now has 50 HP > takes 1 damage from disintegrate > now at 49 HP but still alive
And I do not see disintegrate as an outright death effect. Not like power word kill or finger of death. It has a condition that triggers if the target is reduced to 0 HP. That is all it is.
Show me the rule that says that wild shape specifics trump disintigrate specifics. Disintigrate takes effect the instant any hit points reach 0, which they do BEFORE any reversion happens. Unless you can show me where it says that one specific rule trumps another and gives the order, you are full of it with your claim.
Koshinuke wrote:
There are plenty of abilities in 5E that actually remove their own trigger. Their own trigger never actually happens.
For example, legendary resistance triggers on a failed save. If it triggers, then you succeed instead of failing. Ergo, you never failed. How can this be? If you never failed then the ability wasn't triggered therefore you did fail therefore it is trggered therefore you never failed and it con't trigger therefore you did fail and it does trigger.......!!!!!!
But we know that the legendary save ability does not cause an infinite loop of causality wich sucks the game world down a black hole. So, what is actually happenning here?
What is happenning is that, if you would have failed the save, you instead make the save! Even though the failure triggered the ability, you never actually failed that save. An ability that removes its own trigger.
Another example from the game: shield, the spell. This is cast as a reaction, and the trigger for this reaction is 'when you are hit by an attack' (or targetted by magic missile, but that part is moot in this discussion). The spell gives you +5 AC, and notes that this increase in AC can effectively turn the 'hit' that triggered it into a 'miss'. But a 'miss' cannot trigger it, so it was never cast, so you are hit, so it triggers, which means it missed, so it cannot trigger....down the black hole again.
Do the game mechanics of shield represent you getting your head chopped off, casting shield then your head re-attaching? No. What is happening is that, if an attack would have 'hit', it instead 'misses'. Another examole of removing its own trigger; its own trigger never happened.
The abilities which trigger when you get reduced to 0 hp are also abilities which remove their own trigger. As soon as you get reduced to 0 hp (just like 'as soon as you are hit'), you instead get reduced to 1 hp (just like 'you are missed instead'). It's not a black hole scenario. There is no '0hp so it triggers so 1 hp so it doesn't so 0 hp so it does so 1 hp so it doesn't...'. When it triggers, it removes its own trigger. You were never at 0 hp.
A druid reverts from wild shape when it is unconcious, reduced to 0 hp, or dead. So, if the kitten/druid is hit by an axe and taken to 0 hp, this triggers a reversion to 'druid'. Does this mean that there is a dead kitten? No. There was never a dead kitten! The game mechanic of dropping to 0 hp doesn't mean a dead kitten, it triggers a reversion to 'druid' instead of being reduced to 0 hp (or falling unconscious or dying); it removes its own trigger, just like all these other abilities.
Food for thought: imagine that disintegrate, instead of using the 'saving throw' mechanic, used the 'ranged spell attack' mechanic. It easily could have been written that way; you are aiming a beam of energy at a single target.
So, this variant disitegrate is cast at a target with an AC of 15. The caster rolls a result of 17; a hit! Hooray, the target is disintegrated!
But what if the target casts shield? The trigger (being 'hit' by an attack) allows this spell to be cast as a reaction, and the increased AC now means that the attack 'missed' instead of hitting; the trigger never happened, because it works by saying that if the attack would have hit, it misses instead. Just like 'if it reduces you to 0 hp you are reduced to 1 hp instead'.
So, is the target too 'dusty' to cast shield? Why or why not?
ArialBlack wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Part of the factor is though that a Druid never checks for outright death between reverting forms (unlike the barbarian or half-orc being reduced to 0) due to damage reducing the form to 0 hit points, it just happens as part of the damage resolution process (the form could take 5 times it's max HP in damage and it still doesnt kill the druid if they have enough hit points in their normal form).
The druid simply can't choose to go unconcious and not take the damage to their normal form, as the rules state they have to take all the remaining damage on themselves (being more like temporary hit points in that respect).
I am curious how the devs see it though.
Loswaith wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
And every single spell that makes you have a new form says as much: See Alter Form, Polymorph, True Polymorph, Wildshape, etc.
Your beast form is turned to ash. IT IS STILL YOUR BEAST FORM.
This "Ash Form" of yours doesn't exist.
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Yunru wrote:
No. I think a pile of ash is your wildshape form. Because your wildshape form has been turned to ash.
Yunru wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Yeah no. Now you're resorting to "the rules don't say it but I think". Which isn't a rational arguement.
TL;DR: You're talking nonsense.
Yunru wrote:
Wild Shape says you assume this form, and gives ways to revert. By the rules you don't change form unless something changes you (be it Wildshape itself or a spell). Disintergrate does not say you assume a new form.
Q.E.D.
Yunru wrote:
Your counter-argument relies on something I have never stated nor relied upon. "That's just dumb."
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
vonklaude wrote:
vonklaude wrote:
I'll try asking this again since I got no reply:-
Food for thought: imagine that disintegrate, instead of using the 'saving throw' mechanic, used the 'ranged spell attack' mechanic. It easily could have been written that way; you are aiming a beam of energy at a single target.
So, this variant disitegrate is cast at a target with an AC of 15. The caster rolls a result of 17; a hit! Hooray, the target is disintegrated!
But what if the target casts shield? The trigger (being 'hit' by an attack) allows this spell to be cast as a reaction, and the increased AC now means that the attack 'missed' instead of hitting; the trigger never happened, because it works by saying that if the attack would have hit, it misses instead. Just like 'if it reduces you to 0 hp you are reduced to 1 hp instead'.
So, is the target too 'dusty' to cast shield? Why or why not?
ArialBlack wrote:
vonklaude wrote:
Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:
Nevvur wrote:
Loswaith wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Nevvur wrote:
Per RAW, and the equally absurd idea of a character going unconscious and then awakening (barbarian or orc) for standard physical damage, I would treat the conditions/events as an 'if/then' logic statement where the final outcome is not determined until all the checks are passed. If disintegrate was meant for death period, then it should be a save or die. The same applies to power word kill. But since we are relying on hit point interpretations, and ability that change those hit point interpretations, then a barbarian or orc has one last chance to avoid the effect.
lawrencehoy wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Wow, 10 pages. I'll admit I skimmed page 1 and then skimmed the last two pages.
First of all, I'm a softie and I'd rule people lived because I'm a softie, however it seems to point being discussed is wild shape and I think I have a good point as to why wild shape prevents you from dying outright from disintegrate.
From my interpretation of Wild Shape and other form changing abilities it works less like altering the caster's base form and more like putting a coating or bubble of the animal over it. That's why a druid's hp is not affected until the wild shape "pops" and what makes lv 20 Archdruids crazy strong.
So, if disintegrate hits a wild shaped druid and reduces the shape's hp to zero is dusts the shape, however, since the shape is essentially a "protective bubble" around the Druid's true body it would not kill the druid.
Just to stave off a potential arguement, something like petrification would still petrify a druid, by turning the "protective bubble" of wild shape into stone which effects the druid as it normally would.
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
ArialBlack wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
As far as Wild Shape and Polymorph: I've thought long and hard on the matter and the Disintegrate spell itself is the deciding factor:
Even though the Wild Shape class feature has specific wording to grant it the capability to reverse death: if the Druid dies while in Wild Shape form, he reverts to his normal form and former HP count, reversing death. The class feature does not limit this capability by any means; it can bring the Druid back to life. There is also no limitation on the Wild Shape reversion transformation that specifies "instant death", "dying outright", or anything else will prevent this reversal of death.
However, the Disintegrate spell does put specific limitations on the restoration of life to creatures that have been disintegrated: only the True Resurrection or Wish spells can do so.
So, I'm going to have to agree with Aaron's interpretations: the Druid reverts to normal form (not a pile of fine gray dust), at the Druid's previous HP count, but is still dead until life is restored by one of the two possible means specified by the Disintegrate spell.
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
ArialBlack wrote:
Loswaith wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Look the as a plinko machine.
You automatically revert if you...
1) fall unconscious,
2) drop to 0 hit points,
3) or you die.
Sleep
You automatically revert if you...
1) fall unconscious, --> Wild Shape Fails
2) drop to 0 hit points,
3) or you die.
Result: Unconscious, you revert without checking for 0 hit points or dying
Power Word Kill -
You automatically revert if you...
1) fall unconscious,
2) drop to 0 hit points,
3) or you die. --> Wild Shape Fails
Result: You don't revert at unconscious and you did not hit 0 hit points so neither one causes you to revert however, you revert because you die
Disintegrate
You automatically revert if you...
1) fall unconscious,
2) drop to 0 hit points, --> Wild Shape Fails
3) or you die.
Result: You hit 0 hp so you fall out there and automatically revert, you didn't fall unconscious so that didn't cause you to revert, and you dropped from 0 HP, so you do NOT check for revert on dead
The statement is to take into account Power Word Kill as well as any other effects that are instant kills. Disintegrate is NOT an instant kill. It is a damage spell with an effect if you are at 0 HP. There is a BIG difference. No where in disintegrate does it say you die outright. Not like it does with Power Word Kill. Since it is DAMAGE that disintegrate does, it is DAMAGE that you must look at. In this case you MUST look at how Wild Shape does damage. There is NO EXCEPTION in Wild Shape that has you die when Wild Shape hits 0 HP.
And despite how specific you want to make disintegrate, how damage is applied is a GENERAL rule. How Wild Shape handles the damage is a SPECIFIC rule. AFTER Wild Shape is done (meaning you revert at WS 0 HP to go to your normal HP) do you check for if the target is at 0 HP.
If disintegrate worked the way you say, then temporary HP are the worst thing you can have fighting a beholder even at L20.
Example:
Barbarian has 240 HP at 20 (Just an example) with 20 Temporary HP and encounters a beholder.
Beholder hits barbarian with disintegrate and barbarian fails saving throw.
Barbarian takes 100 damage
Temporary HP hits 0 <-- Disintegrate sees 0 HP turns barbarian to ash
Barbarian is now dead despite having 160 HP
Edit: Finger of Death is also damage with an effect on killing the target, not an instant kill.
Orethalion wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Koshinuke wrote:
Koshinuke wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Koshinuke wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Koshinuke wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
I have to agree with Yunru here. Just because something changes the physical characteristics in some way, does not make it a "new form" from a rules perspective.
Otherwise, you have to argue that a druid who shapeshifts into a wolf, runs through a fire and burns off some fur, is no longer in the wildshape because the form has changed. True shapechanging, like a druid's wild shape, is more than simple physical changes. That is why mass can change so easily as part of it. Its magic. It has rules it follows, but those are different rules than everyday physics. If you get into the most minute of physical details, shape changing never, ever works, because as soon as the new shape's metabolism begins to function, it is no longer the same form that was shapeshifted into.
Can you eat in wildshape and gain sustenance from it?
This will be my last post on this topic.
The rule on pg 66: "You automatically revert if you fall unconscious, drop to 0 HP, or die."
Each part is mutually exclusive. You cannot have more than one thing cause you to revert. Because as soon as the first thing causes you to revert, you have nothing to revert FROM for the other two conditions. For example: Sleep making you unconscious forces you to revert from wolf to normal, meaning that you do not check for 0 HP or death because you are no longer a wolf to revert from.
Wild Shape is in NO WAY similar to what is going on with Half Orc or Barbarian features.
Here is how I see the order of disintegrate for Half Orc or Barbarian
1) hit with disintegrate, fail roll
2) damage is enough to kill Half Orc/Barbarian
3) 0 HP is reached disintegrate effect kicks before the optional features turning them to ash
Here is how I see the order for Wild Shape
1) hit with disintegrate, fail roll
2) damage is enough to reduce Wild Shape to 0
2a) RESOLVE Wild Shape, required/not optional
3) if excess damage reduces druid to 0, druid becomes ash.
With the Half Orc/Barbarian feature, it never gets to activate. With Wild Shape you need to let it finish before you interrupt it.
Aaron of Barbaria: You must of missed the line, in the second grouping in post #324 where it goes: "Show me the rule that says that wild shape specifics trump disintigrate specifics. Disintigrate takes effect the instant any hit points reach 0, which they do BEFORE any reversion happens. Unless you can show me where it says that one specific rule trumps another and gives the order, you are full of it with your claim." This claim he makes would affect the ward from abjuration as well as temporary hit points. Because he specified ANY.
Orethalion: You revert automatically at 0 HP. Wild Shape 0 HP = revert to normal. It is a must happen. Because it is mutually exclusive. You revert before you check to see if you are dead. Because that line says automatically, it kicks in the instant you hit 0. The half orc/barbarian are "CAN" meaning it is an option. You do NOT have the option with Wild Shape. You hit 0 HP = must revert. And when you revert you get your normal hp and then the rest of the damage is applied which still could turn him to ash.
Godwyn wrote:
Kashinuke, that you for pointing out where post #324 was misworded and made an incorrectly over-arching statement.
However, the order of operations you see where disintigrate damage reduces the target to 0 hp, then you resolve wild shape instead of finishing the resolution of disintegrate, is in error - there is no "time" between being reduced to 0 hp by disintigrate and turning to dust - they happen at the same time, as shown by disintegrate being marked as an example of dying outright by the guy in charge of the official intent of the rules.
Koshinuke wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Loswaith wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Another interesting thing this duscussion brings up is if you guys think reverting a druid back to normal qualifies as a trigger for GWF attacks....Pretty dumb if it does. But if you are qualifying that disintegrate kills a druid when they revert then you are also saying things like Life drain kill them with they hit 0 too.....sorry your 1 max hitpoints is reduced to 0, you die and turn into a wraith....then you revert back to your normal form....kinda silly.
The entire point of all the 'stay alive' abilities it to keep you from suffering the consequences of going to 0 hitpoints.
In the case of disintegrate, and Orc ferocity....going to 0 hitpoints triggers 2 -simultaneous- effects...But dnd does not happen simultaneously, it happens in sequential turns. So absent a game rule stating the order of operations in such circumstances, you can argue till you are blue in the face which version you think is right. However BOTH interpretations are valid within RAW. So it is up to the DM to decide...and he should liberally apply the 'rule of cool' in this scenario.
Like if 4 people ready actions to attack the same target using the same triggering conditions, what happens? The trigger happens then 4 people simultaneously get their attacks....but that can't happen, so the DM will pick an order to resolve them....he could use the regular initiative order, but he could just as reasonably go backwards from last person to first, or he could even just go clockwise around the table...or he could pick the guy that gets the most gratification out of killstealing.
If the DM says you take 25 damage, and the orc says ok, -INSTEAD- I get reduced to 1 hitpoint, then DM looks at disintegrate and says well u arent at 0, congratz. Or he could say 'you take 25 damage and are dead with no reactions or do-overs, see you next week with a new 1st level character'....pretty shitty.
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Did I miss the part where you discussed Jeremy's more recent tweet?
@JeremyECrawford When someone fails a disintegrate roll and is turned to ash, would that be considered a transformation into a new form?
A transformation into a new form? No. The annihilation of your body? Yes. #DnD Jeremy Crawford
Scotch the transformed concept, but the body is "annihilated". That seems like a thing not able to revert to me. There is no body that is at 0 HP so the revert condition loses its trigger.
vonklaude wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Yunru wrote:
This is simple:
we got 2 different effect that trigger when the target reach 0HP:
trigger1- wild shape return you to humanoid form and you take the left over damage
trigger2- disintegrate transform you into a pile of ash.
if we are playing MTG both effect would take effect, in the order (I would have to double check been a while since I played MTG) of the active player choosing.
but we are not playing magic the gathering, we are playing DnD. in DnD when the rule conflict with each other it become a DM judgement. The DM decide in what order those effect and the how to control them.
The closest I can get of an official answer would be the specific rule beat general rule, so only one of the 2 effect would take effect, but which one is the more specific rule? this is up to tthe DM ince both are a specific ruing that go against the general ruling (when you hit 0 HP you are dying and roll a death saving throw)? the special wild shape rule? or the special disintgrate rule?
Loswaith wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Byakugan01 wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
vonklaude wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Loswaith wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Yunru wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Loswaith wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Yunru wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
vonklaude wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
vonklaude wrote:
Yunru wrote:
vonklaude wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
You're now defined as a pile of ash as per the spell. Not a pile of wildshaped ash or druid wildshaped ash. Just a pile of ash. Specific beats general. You are no longer considered a druid, you're a pile of ash. You're no longer considered to be under any condition or effect outside of being a pile of ash and the only means to return from being turned into a pile of ash this way is via the two means listed in the spell. Namely the wish spell. You don't get to revert, you don't get to do anything. You're ash.
Yunru wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
You're creating a conflict with what you're claiming. The spell says "You're turned into ash". What you claim is "you're turned into wildshaped ash". You're modifying what the spell specifically says it does to then argue something else. You're blatantly wrong and it's obvious. You're not a druid anymore, you're not wildshaped anymore, you're under no condition or effects outside of the singular "you're now a pile of ashes". Followed by "this is how you return from being turned into a pile of ashes"
And yes, desintegrate specifically lists 2 ways to return from being turned to ash because being turned to ash kills you outright. This has been confirmed directly by dev response. So the only way you can return from being killed outright this way is via the 2 listed ways. Specifically and without an option for other means because the spell specifically says so.
Anyway, I don't even know why I'm responding to you so i'll stop here lol.
Noctaem wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
vonklaude wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Yunru wrote:
I see it as progressing like this:
- Disintegrate reduces you to 0 hit points
- You revert due to being being reduced to 0 hit points and simultaneously turn to dust because of the effect of disintegrate (killing you).
- You return to your normal number of hit points (which occurs regardless of how you revert) and suffer any excess damage
The main difficulty I see with ruling on it is that you simultaneously revert and turn to dust, both of which are basically changes in form (one of which happens to be lethal) and both of which are triggered by exactly the same circumstances. I haven't said much on it because I don't really see it favouring either interpretation (unlike the relentless endurance/rage case, where it was just about whether the death was outright, a clause which wild shape lacks).
Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:
Yunru wrote:
vonklaude wrote:
An answer from Jeremy Crawford
The intent is that a druid using Wild Shape is Disintegrated if the druid, not the beast form, drops to 0 hp.
Loswaith wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Loswaith wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Although, we now have to consider which hit point value the Power Word Kill spell (and similar spells) is keying off of. This new ruling of Jeremy Crawford's can be applied to that as well; taking into account the Druid's hit points, not the Wild Shape's. This would be a more consistant ruling, considering it reflects the Druid's overall level of might/power.
Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Ha, guess I was wrong about wildshape and desintegrate. Thank you for the tweet Q&A 
If disintegrate doesn't kill you in wildshape, I don't think a vorpal sword would either. PWK I could go either way on, but at the table I'd probably just base it on the druid's own hp.
jaelis wrote:
ArialBlack wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
jaelis wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Arialblack why do keep using the orc/barb feature and say that you get set to 1? We know for a fact that those features DO NOT WORK vs desintegrate. The dev's have specifically stated that the effect of desintegrate if it drops you to 0 HP IS OUTRIGHT DEATH. The only one we weren't sure about was wildshape, which has now been basically answered. So:
Orc = turned to ash
Barb = turned to ash
Wildshape = unless the excess damage being applied to the actual druid HP pool ALSO brings it to 0 HP, it is not turned to ash before, during or after it reverts to druid form because it dropped to 0.
I'm guessing that you missed reading the section of the thread where this was revealed and discussed. You have no ground to stand on to say otherwise.
Noctaem wrote:
FarBeyondC wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
FarBeyondC wrote:
ArialBlack wrote:
Orethalion,
Will you be migrating to ENWorld?
Yunru wrote:
Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Get a room guys.
jaelis wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Yunru and Orethalion sittin' in a tree...
Oh, and Orethalion... You didn't answer my question...
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
So is that a no?