Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 theinsider45 Aug 03, 2015 18:30:58	Some of my players use the dissinant whispers spell after the other players have surrounded it so they can all get opportunity attack, but the spell says that the target will not move into obvious danger. So my question is would a creature run away knowning it is going to be attacked?
#2 transcendantviewer Aug 03, 2015 18:47:47	This is one of those moments where there's a disconnect between reality and game mechanics. A creature that's afraid for its life and panicked will duck between your legs and knock you over if it means preventing you from harming it while it escapes. Such things aren't permitted in D&D without the use of actions, even though the aspect of just "Running Into" somebody is fundimentally easy to do and doesn't actually take any special amount of effort, just a good amount of momentum. Cutting under someone's legs is equally as easy, when you duck and just run shoulder-first into their knees. They could be the biggest, burliest guy you know, but you buckle his knees out from under him, he's going down and you're probably still going.
#3 jaelis Aug 03, 2015 18:52:06	theinsider45 wrote:
#4 Byakugan01 Aug 03, 2015 19:23:30	Our tables pretty much all use the basic rule that any kind of forced movement does not provoke AoOs.
#5 Nevvur Aug 03, 2015 20:27:36	Your players are using teamwork. I wouldn't punish that by nerfing how Dissonant Whispers and OAs operate. However, if it is feeling overpowered with your group, I would try to create more situations where they cannot or should not use it. Not all the time, mind you, but enough to force them to develop new tactics.    A few ideas...   A deafened creature automatically succeeds on the saving throw. If the party has acquired a reputation for this tactic, the BBEG might give his favorite henchmen earplugs.  An enemy caster can create a zone of silence on his allies (that hopefully overlaps with PC spellcasters).   A naturally immobile opponent can't flee, and thus cannot incur OAs.   If the PCs are surrounding an opponent, they're bunched up nicely for an AE. The surrounded opponent may very well be bait (say, a fire resistant creature, while an invisible wizard readies a fireball)   Use an enemy that can reliably use its reaction before the PC casts Dissonant Whispers. That way he won't have a reaction to spend if he fails the save.   Use the same tactic against the PCs.
#6 strider13x Aug 03, 2015 20:34:01	so the frieghtened target pushes one PC into another while running away, all OAs are made at Disadvantage! use some narative! or they could simply Disengage...
#7 mellored Aug 03, 2015 20:36:03	it's a strong tactic at low levels, but OA's become less powerfull as you go up in levels. both because you can't multi-attack (rogues damage scales, as they are oppertunists), and you gain other things to use your reaction on (uncanny dodge).
#8 jaelis Aug 03, 2015 20:37:10	strider13x wrote:
#9 mellored Aug 03, 2015 20:40:35	even narrativly, if your in the middle of a melee, your already trying to push and stab people. suddenly turning to run means you arn't parrying or blocking for a moment.
#10 lawrencehoy Aug 03, 2015 22:11:53	Byakugan01 wrote:
#11 sim-h Aug 04, 2015 6:24:46	lawrencehoy wrote:
#12 mellored Aug 04, 2015 6:39:13	sim-h wrote:
#13 sim-h Aug 04, 2015 7:36:31	mellored wrote:
#14 mellored Aug 04, 2015 7:57:23	lawrencehoy wrote:
#15 jaelis Aug 04, 2015 8:00:57	So if you do play that the target won't provoke OAs, or presumably do anything else that has a risk of injury, is the spell good enough? It's single target 3d6 save none if I recall.  Compare to:   Burning hands: multiple target 3d6 save half Guiding bolt: 4d6 miss none plus decent rider Inflict wounds: 3d10 miss none Magic missile: equiv 3d6 automatic Thunderwave: 2d8 area plus push   I feel like dissonant whispers would be underpowered if the move was negated most of the time. You might consider upping the damage to compensate.   If you play that the target moves but doesn't provoke, then I guess it is a bit better, but still seems weak to me.
(Reply to #10) Nevvur	lawrencehoy wrote:
#17 Bloodscythe Aug 04, 2015 9:17:23	Nevvur already covered this quite well:   Seems like a silly tactic given that it clusters all the characters together, making them a prime target for an AoE spell like sleep or Fireball or so.   Situationally it will be useful.  Other situations will make it very foolish.  Considering, after clustering, and after using their reaction for a low dmg OA (unless they're a rogue), each character also no longer has a reaction available for things like uncanny dodge, making that Fireball coming their way even more efficient.   So yeah, if you're fighting martial types, this is effective.  If the enemy forces contain any spellcasters though, you probably should avoid this tactic.  I know DMs I'm used to would take full advantage of clustered PCs.  I know I would if I'm the DM.   And any tactic you use against creatures also works against you, and every time you use it with lethal efficiency just demonstrates to the DM that tactical opponents would do the same thing.   But yeah, Dissonant Whispers can definitely cause a creature to trigger OAs.
#18 lawrencehoy Aug 04, 2015 10:44:25	mellored wrote:
#19 sim-h Aug 05, 2015 2:34:24	mellored wrote:
#20 sim-h Aug 05, 2015 2:36:27	Having said all that - the target has already FAILED a Wisdom saving throw, so I can see the case for allowing the OA too.   Luckily my players are all newbies or haven't played for decades and don't come up with things like this very often (yet!).
#21 Nevvur Aug 05, 2015 8:20:49	If you're going to rule like that, then you ought to be consistent and rule that every effect that makes a creature move also does not provoke OAs. At least, that's how will players will expect the DM to rule on such effects, and an important part of the DMs job is to manage player expectations.   Why not just eliminate OAs if you don't like players using tactics?
#22 jaelis Aug 05, 2015 8:32:28	Nevvur wrote:
#23 Nevvur Aug 05, 2015 18:10:19	Sure, any ruling is reasonable if that's what's most fun for everyone. I would posit that most players don't find reductions in power to be fun, however. Playing the game completely RAW is balanced enough for my tastes, and if my players happen upon a strong RAW tactic, I take it upon myself to increase the difficulty of encounters to balance against the tactic, rather than nerfing their choices.    edit: my earlier post was meant more to comment on the mentality of house ruling without thoroughly investigating the implications of that house rule, or having a strong understanding of the original rule's intent. If you are going to rule that Dissonant Whispers won't cause a creature to provoke opportunity attacks, you should also rule the same for Fear, Command, Turn Undead and a number of other effects. You are damaging an entire class of effects, making certain class and spell selections less attractive. If my DM pulled this on me, I would never play a cleric or bard again, because a tactically interesting part of my arsenal just got taken away.   If we want to create a distinction about why suffering opportunity attacks shouldn't be considered "moving into danger," I prefer to regard these magical compulsions as overriding tactical thinking (considerations like my enemies can hit me when I turn and run) but not more primal self preservation (don't jump off the cliff, or into lava).