Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 TonyBuc Sep 10, 2014 7:28:36	Okay, I am runnign a druid and trying to compile a list of all beasts with their statistics so I can overlay in excel when I wildshape.   To do this, I need to deconstruct the stat block and confirm the proficiency of the beast I then use the HD as a level range to confirm.  This will allow me to properly merge the two forms according to the PHB rules and quickly generate accurate Wildshape form sheets that I can use during the game.   Quite quickly my plan fell apart.  When I hit the Allosaurus I Suddently realized either the book was wrong, my assumptions were wrong or the creators of the monsters were simply lazy.   Here are the relevant stats for my issue Allosaurus: STR: 19 (+4) WIS: 12 (+1) Perception: +5 To Hit: +6 HD: 6d10   Perception +5 with Wisdom +1 gives +4 Proficiency bonus which seems way high for 6d10 To Hit: +6  with STR +4 gives +2 proficiency bonus which seems too low 6d10 HD should be +3 proficiency bonus (right in the middle) There are no speciail abilities or penalties listed that would explain this discrepancy so my question is: Should I assume this is a mistake and fix the statistics in my sheet to be mechanically accurate? Or Should I assume this was intended and simply drop the concept of beasts being mechanically accurate? Or Am I missing something?
#2 TonyBuc Sep 10, 2014 8:43:31	After getting through about 30 of the beasts... I realized WOTC has no regard for the Player/NPC mechanics when it comes to monsters.  Which is fine.   Should I assume this was intended and simply drop the concept of beasts being mechanically accurate? Seems like the right answer.
#3 Bennedict Sep 10, 2014 9:10:05	They probably are including things that you can't really take into account that players also get. Racial and class benefits. What if the Allosaurus race gets a bonus to perception? I'm assuming, for monsters that they aren't following any kind of character building guidelins and are just shooting for balanced stats without justifying it all on paper for us. Doesn't mean we can't make it make sense. Give justifications for these discrepancies as I did with the racial example. Maybe class/race/level benefits need to be assumed to make it work. It probably would have taken a tremendous amount of effort to do this in a timely manner to get books out the door to make money. Too much time/money spent on one area will eat into profits, and no matter what anyone says, ultimately, they are in business to make money. Otherwise they would just shoot to break even.
#4 AaronOfBarbaria Sep 10, 2014 10:00:18	Looks like the Allosaurus receives double proficiency bonus to Perception (effectively, it has Expertise with Perception).   What other discrepencies do you see, and how might those be explained by the rules being applied "in the background" so that there aren't numerous wasted lines of text for things like "Allosaurus have particuarly keen senses to help them in finding their prey. They receive double their proficiency bonus, in place of their regular proficiency bonus (already included in the statistics above) on Wisdom (Perception) checks and to their passive perception score."?
#5 TonyBuc Sep 10, 2014 10:47:46	I am almost done with the beasts... I have found about a dozen descrepancies.   Not going to list them all but most have to do with skills and to hits not matching what should be the proficiency bonus of the monster based on HD.    Yes, the beast might have expertise or something along those lines but it is not specified anywhere.  My issue, I was trying to build a quick tool for personal use that would calculate the rules based on a set of knowns.  Not having the knowns (ie. some background rule not described) takes away the ability for me to accurately do this. I can assume based on HD what the proficiency bonus is, then assume bonuses when there is a descrepancy but that is making an assumption that HD determines proficiency bonus.   Either way, it doesn't matter much.  The issues really is only +1/-1 on a particular proficiency when merged.  I just wanted it to be mechancially accurate and without all the details that is really not possible.
#6 Illithidbix Sep 10, 2014 10:59:46	Monster Prof. bonus is based on Challenge Rating, not number of Hit Dice. As shown on page. 4 of the Dungeon Master’s Basic Rules PDF   Don't think of Hit Dice as a monster's "level", think of the CR as the monster's level. And the CR increases slower than the hitdice, since it's based upon how much of a threat it is to an entire party.     The Proficiency Bonus by Challenge Rating table is actually identical to player progression Prof bonus = [(CR/4 rounding up) +1] But goes to 30 and counts anything below CR 1 as 1.
#7 TonyBuc Sep 10, 2014 11:05:54	The Proficiency Bonus by Challenge Rating table is actually identical to player progression Prof bonus = [(CR/4 rounding up) +1] But goes to 30 and counts anything below CR 1 as 1.   !!!!!   Thank you!!! I knew I was missing something!
#8 Gruff_Ironfist Sep 10, 2014 12:14:06	I'm not clear on why you need to deconstruct anything.   Wildshape says, "If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours." The implication is that it works in reverse too; use your bonus if its higher than the forms.   If you have Perception +4 in your normal form, and the wildshape has Perception +5, you simply use the +5. If you have Stealth +6 in your normal form, and the wildshape has Stealth +4, you simply use the +6 (regardless of the fact the wildshape's DEX is different than yours).   You don't start manually calculating your normal form's WIS plus figuring out whatever the wildshape's Perception proficiency add was, etc. Sure, this can bend logic a bit, such as the DEX example above. But the point of 5e is simplicity. You're making it overly complicated. When we reviewed this, it only amounted to a difference of +1 or -1 anyway. Thus the reason why they opted for the simplicity. It wasn't worth the effort to force people to recalc for that.     Honestly, the only thing that requires merging is if your normal form has a proficiency that the wildshape does not. Sure, you could go through the effort of adding your proficiency bonus to the wildshape's appropriate score. Or you could go simple, and use your bonus as it is.
(Reply to #8) Overpromises	Gruff_Ironfist wrote:
#10 ScottGreene Sep 10, 2014 18:46:49	TonyBuc wrote:
#11 RCanine Sep 27, 2014 18:03:31	Overpromises wrote:
#12 Grazel Sep 28, 2014 5:36:09	RCanine wrote: