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| #1BloodscytheAug 05, 2015 13:40:29 | So ran into this debate on the Ask A Simple Question/Get A Simple Answer thread:
If a character does something during combat, does this "something" necessitate the use of a resource of either an action, bonus action, reaction, or movement?
Examples are: Sleight of hand Hiding Stealth Hanging onto a wagon Steering a chariot around a turn ... Obviously, there are many many more.
The only example I'm seeing presented that doesn't is Passive Perception, but then it is literally a passive ability check. It's very design means it is not something a character is actively doing.
So the question is: can a character perform an ability check without also using an action or movement to "do" something first, or as a reaction to something, like a wagon being moved by an enemy?
For instance, if you are in combat and flying, and you have already used your action, and bonus action on your turn, and used your reaction, and a creature hits you with an arrow, and you lose concentration and fall, can you attempt to grab onto a tree branch as you fall to slow your descent or to keep yourself from falling, or would this act require an action, making it impossible for the character to grab a limb, and thus no chance of success with an ability check so no need to make one, since they have already acted as much as they can during this combat round?
Feel free to provide other examples to see how people would rule.
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| #2jaelisAug 05, 2015 13:56:57 | There are maybe a few different questions here.
First, is there a rule that says ability checks require an action (in combat)? The answer is no, nothing in the rules says that. The closest thing is the statement that DMs may require an action if you try to do something that takes special care or presents an unusual obstacle. Those situations might also be ones where an ability check would be required. But even the the rules don't insist that an action is needed.
Second, are there examples in the text of ability checks that don't require actions? I gave some in the other thread. - Passive perception checks don't require an action but are still checks. - A Str check can be used to hang on to a moving wagon, which would not take place on your turn and thus couldn't use an action. - Communication via gestures is called out as not needing an action, but could require an Int check.
Other examples are more debatable, such as using a Cha check while communicating or steering a chariot around a tight turn. I think there is good reason to say these don't require actions, but they might per the 'special care' rule above.
Third, are there situations where you personally would not require an action for an ability check? For me, yes, quite a few. I wouldn't require an action to recall information, for instance. |
| #3Tempest_StormwindAug 05, 2015 14:09:22 | If it helps, I find it's best to correct a player who says "I make a Sleight of Hand check to....". Instead, they should say "I try to pick the key without him noticing". That activity requires an action (the default assumption is that what you do requires an action, unless you have an ability that lets you do it with a bonus action or if it falls under the rules for free actions or "done as a part of movement"), and since there's a chance of failure, you call for a Sleight of Hand check. (Or not, if the outcome is certain one way or the other!)
Basically, the checks aren't actions themselves, but are ways of determining success or failure of things you do. Most of the things you do are actions, but not all of them would be.
Note that one of your examples - hanging on to a moving chariot - could easily be considered a saving throw instead of an ability check. Strength would be the obvious choice, but I'd allow adding proficiency if you're proficient with vehicles (land) or Strength saves. |
| #4jaelisAug 05, 2015 14:09:02 |
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| (Reply to #2)Bloodscythe |
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| #6Tempest_StormwindAug 05, 2015 14:16:27 |
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| (Reply to #3)Bloodscythe |
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| #8BloodscytheAug 05, 2015 14:31:56 | The basis of this discussion is a particular example so I'll list it here also:
Maximillian's Earthen Grasp: On your turn, you can make a strength check to break free. Does this "breaking free" require using an action? Or is it something you can do on your turn in addition to your 1 action?
Can you, on your turn, break free from the earthen grasp, move up to your speed, and use your action to attack the caster of the spell? Or are you required to use your action to break free?
Breaking a grapple explicitly requires an action. Maximillian's Earthen Grasp doesn't explicitly say this. |
| #9iserithAug 05, 2015 14:32:46 |
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| #10jaelisAug 05, 2015 14:34:07 |
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| (Reply to #9)Bloodscythe |
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| #12Tempest_StormwindAug 05, 2015 14:43:58 |
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| (Reply to #12)Bloodscythe |
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| #14jaelisAug 05, 2015 14:59:30 |
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| #15iserithAug 05, 2015 14:59:44 |
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| (Reply to #14)Bloodscythe |
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| #17Tempest_StormwindAug 05, 2015 15:02:51 |
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| (Reply to #15)Bloodscythe |
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| (Reply to #17)Bloodscythe |
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| #20iserithAug 05, 2015 15:20:07 |
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| #21iserithAug 05, 2015 15:23:28 |
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| (Reply to #21)Bloodscythe |
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| #23celtwarriorAug 05, 2015 17:33:50 | early in the discussion was a question if hiding was an action to that we have clear answer, p192 PHB in the list of ACTIONS IN COMBAT is HIDING " When you take the Hide action, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check in an attempt to hide"
also on the next page, and still in the list of ACTIONS IN COMBAT is:
S e a r c h |
| #24jaelisAug 05, 2015 17:38:06 |
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| #25Greenstone.WalkerAug 05, 2015 18:06:25 | No, because characters don't do ability checks. A fighter does not "do a STR check"; they "break down a door" or "restrain the fleeing goblin" or "flex their muscles to imtimidate the barkeep". The skill check is simply one way the GM has of determining success or failure.
What should happen is: 1. Player declares an objective and an approach. 2. GM decides if the approach is possible and then determines the skill check (if any), required materials (if any) and time taken (if any). 3. Player rolls dice (if asked for). 4. GM and Player narrate the result.
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| #26Coolossus2123Aug 05, 2015 18:18:51 | Oddly enough, I was just about to start a thread asking almost the exact same question. So the consensus is, it's mostly entirely up to the DM? What I gathered from the given information, is that literal ability checks do not cost actions in combat, they are tools used by the DM to resolve and abjucate if an action attempted by a character succeeds or fails. It's the fact that if what the character attempts requires an ability check, it might be a big enough thing for the DM to tell the player it uses their action. So there are no rules that specifically says or implies anything that requires the use of ability checks costs an action, and it's a case by case basis. I think this is the one time I'm glad for the ambiguity in 5e. For instance, to me it wouldn't make sense for the player to have to use an action when trying to remember lore about an ancient Lich king he's facing, because I require him to make a Intelligence (History) check. At the same time, I might require him to use an action if he attempts to lift a huge boulder to seal off the cave his enemies are attacking from so they are trapped and can't get out, when I tell him to make a Strength check. I feel that this is reflected where, as stated above, it says that DMs may require an action if you try to do something that takes special care or presents an unusual obstacle. So my opinion is, if it is not stated in the description that something requiring an ability check costs an action, it is assumed it does not, unless specified by the DM, and that while just because an ability check is asked by the DM for an attempt at something, it does not mean it requires an action. |
| #27jaelisAug 05, 2015 18:30:47 |
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| #28Coolossus2123Aug 05, 2015 18:38:27 | You know, I agree with you on that, I think that better fits how the edition works. |
| #29Rya.ReisenderAug 06, 2015 0:30:18 | During combat, most ability checks I can imagine would cost an action because the "action" behind it would certainly require at least close to 6 seconds.
The rules aren't too clear about it, but the situations that are defined like hide action and search action make it pretty clear that such action consume a full action. The rules are also clear that quick gestures and talk do not consume any action. And that you have one free object interaction but a second one takes an action.
Still it leaves many situations where it's not clear. In particular recalling information about a monster. You can see it two ways: The character knew that information from the start and the player just wants to know it. Then it takes zero time and wouldn't consume an action. But another way to look at it is the character rubbing his chin and being like "Hmmm, where have I heard of that creature before... oh I know!" which then certainly takes those 6 seconds available and consequently consume an action. So it's very strongly left to the DM.
Or even pickpocketing... does pickpocketing a goblin you run past require an action or would that fall into the category of "free object interaction during movement". Lots of stuff up to the DM. |
| #30TheCriticalFailAug 06, 2015 1:49:13 | Pretty much entirely depends on the action they're attempting. The Half Orc Barbarian attempted to rip the door of its hinges to allow the party to escape, provoking an athletics ability check... action. The same character jumping over a small chasm to enter combat, also provoking an athletics check for a longer than usual jump, not an action. I'd consider it part of his movement. The rogue trying to sleight of hand the keys from the jailer while one of his team-mates fights him off... action. The same rogue simply attempting to use persuasion while fighting off the jailer himself, not an action.
Of course all of these are open to interpretation. Like Rya above said, I've had DM's count recalling information about a monster as both actions and free actions. So yes, no hard answer I'm afraid. |
| (Reply to #25)Bloodscythe |
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| #32iserithAug 06, 2015 6:29:25 |
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