I'm on the fense with this one. Does each magic missile spell trigger the extra 1d6 from Hex spell?
Hex: PHB page 251
You place a curse on a creature that you can see within range. Until the spell ends you deal an extra 1d6 necrotic damage to the target when ever you HIT with an attack
Magic Missile: PHB page 257
You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart HITS a creature of your choice that you can see within range.
The questions that needs answering:
Are the hits from Magic Missile spell considered an attack?
If the hits are an attack... if you sent all three or more magic missiles at the same target with a hex up would it trigger the extra 1d6 per missle or once for the whole spell?
Thanks ahead of time for the help!
Daddygoat
I would apply the bonus to each missle...i'm at work and don't have my phb to see what sort of build you'd need (multiclassing aside) to have both on the same character, since the hex bonus only applies for the caster.
I believe Mr. Mearls has tweeted about magic missle w/r/t the wizard ability that adds Int mod to the damage. He said it works on a per-target basis, as all the missiles that hit a given target do so simultaneously. I'd think the same thing would apply here; +1d6 damage, once, not once per missile.
The Mr. Mearls tweet was about the wizard evoaction power 'empowered evocation' where the wording is 'add your intelligence mod to the damage roll of any wizard SPELL you cast'
this is different in that the wording with Hex is on hit. Hex works amazing with scorching ray btw. O.o
The devs have said unequivocally that all the missiles HIT simultaneously and therefore are treated as one damage source. Therefore you only get a single extra 1d6 for hex.
Hex: PHB page 251
You place a curse on a creature that you can see within range. Until the spell ends you deal an extra 1d6 necrotic damage to the target when ever you hit with an ATTACK.
Making an ATTACK: PHB page 194
If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an ATTACK, the rule is simple: if you're making an ATTACK roll, you're making an ATTACK.
Magic Missile does not require an ATTACK roll, therefore it is not an ATTACK.
I agree, magic missile is not an attack thta hit and so it shouldn't trigger your Hex.
jonathonhawke wrote:
jonathonhawke wrote:
for anyone quoting Mearl tweet, as long as their is no official errata coming out it doesn't count, since Mearl could be confusing with other rules (and IIRC he did confuse different version together in his tweet) You have to remember that Mearl know have work a long time on previous editions, all the different playtest that have been publish, all the diffrent playtest that didn't got publish, the current PHB and the future book and errate that will come out soon, so it is very easy and understandable that he could confuse the ruling between different edition/playtest, beta version, alpha version, R&D discussion etc...
So maybe he was confusion (or leaking) that in the next errata the mage evocation will only apply 1/target, but he didn't say all the other rules going around it like if the mage will receive an other bonus to compensate.
Untill then you can read it RAW:
Sorcerer:
Starting at 6th level, when you cast a spell that deals damage o f the type associated with your draconic ancestry, add your Charisma modifier to that damage.
Warlock:
When you cast eldritch blast, add your Charisma modifier to the damage it deals on a hit.
Evocator Wizard:
Beginning at 10th level, you can add your Intelligence modifier to the damage roll of any wizard evocation spell you cast.
Hex:
Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 necrotic damage to the target whenever you hit it with an attack.
Hunter Mark:
Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 damage to the target whenever you hit it with a weapon attack.
Magic Missile:
You create three glowing darts o f magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously, and you can direct them to hit one creature or several.
Scorching ray:
Make a ranged spell attack for each ray. On a hit, the target takes 2d6 fire damage.
Eldritch blast:
Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, the target takes 1d10 force damage. The spell creates more than one beam when you reach higher levels: [...] You can direct
the beams at the same target or at different ones. Make a separate attack roll for each beam.
- None of those spell are weapon (since weapon are liste in the equipement section, even unarmed) so Hunter Mark NEVER apply to those 3 spells.
- Magic missile: benefit from Evocator Wizard abilities since the only condition is to be a wizard, evocation spell that have a damage roll. the damage roll of Magic missile is 1d4+1 per dart. So with the wizard ability, it become 1d4+1+Int Mod per dart. as RAW. Hex require an attack so NO. Sorcerer require a element and MAgic missile is force, so NO, Warlock only affect Eldritch blast so NO
- Scorching ray: ranged spell ATTACK so it is an attack. So Evocator Wizard AND Fire dragon sorcerer can add there Int or Cha to the damage. the damage is 2d6 per ray so it become 2d6+Int or Cha Mod per ray (or both if you are a wizard 10/sorcerer6)
-Eldritch blast: you add your Cha when you HIT with the spell. you HIT when your attack roll is higher then the target AC. and you do s separate attack roll for each beam. So 4 beam=4attack roll=4hit= add your Cha 4 times.
The only mention of target is you can target 1 or many target simultaneously, so all attack happen at the same time, so they all benefit from the same statut (if you are hidden, you are hidden when all the rays/beams attack so they all get advantage, but if you quicken/haste a firebolt it is not hidden so no advantage). If Mearl wanted this edition to to apply the bonus 1 per target, he would have writing it: 1 per target, not 1 per damage roll. 1 per target also take less place then 1 per damage roll, so it was not a shortcut to avoid overflowing on the next page.
So untill they bring the PHB 2nd printing or an errata, the bonus apply on all the dart, rays and beam from Magic missile, scorhcing ray and Eldritch blast, EXCEPT for the HEX which is not trigger by Magic missile. But Magic missile not being an attack, will not trigger other thing that trigger on attacks, so if you ready an action to act when the ennemy attack you, if he cast magic missile since it's not an attack then your ready action do not trigger.
Compare to Eldritch Blast which specifically says you are making an attack.
Magic Missile does not state you are making an attack, only that you are dealing damage.
This is the kind of thing that was crystal clear in 4e but is annoyingly (intentionally?) vague in 5e.
What I'm saying is, YMMV, but I wouldn't rule it as an attack.
Plaguescarred wrote:
1. I would definitely rule that a magic missile is an attack. All attack rolls to hit are attacks, but not all attacks require attack rolls.
2. The way it is written, you would get the damage with every missile (if 3 hit a single creature who is the target of the hex, then all three get the damage bonus).
3. Feel free to adjucate it, but be consistent as a DM. If a creature has 2 melee attacks and hits twice on a target that has a retributive spell that would do damage on an attack, either apply the damage to each attack, or only once for the attack action.
Honestly, I am likely to apply it to every strike. I will consider changing something only when I see it as being unbalancing at mid to high levels.
Hex does not trigger from dealing damage. It triggers off hitting with an attack. Hitting with an attack is a defined game term which means rolling a d20 and matching or beating the defense of your target for example. Magic Missile does not do that, so it can't benefit from things that trigger off hitting with an attack. It doesn't matter what logical sense you want to apply to it. Hitting with an attack and triggering something from doing so is defined game language. Many people here are forgetting this and advocating houserules. Everyone is free to use houserules of course, but that isn't what the rules say and they should never be taken as such.
Although it is badly worded - the rules on pg194 imply that attacks (a defined game term) are defined as any hostile action which requires an attack roll. If it does not use an attack roll, the action may be considered an "attack" (by colloquial use definitions), but not for the purpose of meeting the definition of the defined game term called attack. As with legalise - defined terms trump common usage within its own sphere of influence.
Defined game terms therefore trump common usage within Dungeons & Dragons. Attack is a defined game term. Common definitions for the word "attack" are irrelevant, and do not exist for the purpose of making a ruling in this instance.
A fireball is not an attack. It is a spell which requires a saving throw. It does not meet the game definition of an attack. Hex would not trigger.
A magic missile is not an attack. It is a spell which hits automatically, without an attack roll. Hex would not trigger.
Even if you rule that Hex triggers in both cases - it would only trigger once per target, as Mike Mearles tweeted about in his response to the Magic Missile vs. Empowered Invocation question.
FYI, that question was specific to Magic Missile, yet some people have extrapolated it when discussing attack roll spells, and saving throw spells, making their rulings based on incomplete data as there is no evidence that Mikes tweet has any impact on spells which require attack rolls/saves... At best, you can only extrapolate the results of this ruling to other spells which are no-save, no-attack sources of damage. Anything beyond that is forming a conclusion on incomplete data.
dwgautier wrote:
So, wait .. the fact that magic missile specifically *says* the missiles hit means nothing in this case?
In 4e, everyone had issues with adding damage modifiers to magic missile because it was ruled as "auto-damage" and not an automatic hit. Now, the spell actually *says* each dart hits a target. Hex applies damage on a hit; therefore, Hex damage applies to magic missile. Simplicity is what 5e is about, not convolution.
Undrhil wrote:
Just for the record:
The following game term definitions can be found on page. 192 and 193 of the PHB.
ACTIONS IN COMBAT
- ATTACK
"The most comme action to take in combat is the Attack action. [...] See the "Making an Attack" section [below] for the rules that govern attacks" (p. 192).
- CAST A SPELL
"[...] a spellcaster often uses his or her action in combat to cast [a casting time of 1 action] spell".
MAKING AN ATTACK [action]
"Whether you're striking with a melee weapon [melee attack], firing at weapon at range [range attack], or making an attack roll as part of a spell, an attack has a simple structure."
So according to these definitions, Magic Missile doesn't qualify as an attack. It is, however, a Cast a spell action, which - like many spells - can provide damage.
I agree that Hex shouldn't add to magic missile as stated above, although bestow curse would as the damage applies to attacks AND spells, not just attacks. Technically, this would also make spells like fireball, which require a save but no attack roll, also ineligible for Hex. However you could give them disadvantage on Dexterity saves, which effectively makes them likely to take full damage unless your save DC is very low and /or there dex is very high.
Fireball and other save-based damage spells do not trigger Hex. Hex is only triggered by an "attack roll", regardless of whether that attack roll is made with a weapon, improvised weapon, or a spell.
Bestow Curse is triggered by all damage dealing spells however, due to its wording.
Kalani wrote:
LordCyler wrote:
LordCyler wrote:
ok hex only triggers with actions which requires an attack roll?
like eldritch blast or hit with a swort?
when you hit with an attack
so eldritch blast with 4 beams you create 4times the hex damage?
LordCyler wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Undrhil wrote:
My answer would be yes, but only because I'm of the opinion that Magic Missile's pretty much an attack anyway. It's weird, and muddies a lot of rules, but it's an automatic hit that just does damage; it goes against the majority of D&D's philosophy of "Chance". We have to make concessions somewhere, otherwise it'd just be a below-average spell that nobody really likes. I personally really like it, but others are liable to disagree. Opinions aside, it's a 1st level spell that does 1d4+1 times 3 missiles. Adding another d6 to each missile at the cost of another level 1 spell slot isn't a big deal in my book. I'd personally reward a player for being resourceful enough to come up with that. I certainly didn't think of it.
LordCyler wrote:
@Noctaem - here you go, the text from the PHB regarding Sentinel and Hex (only relevant information quoted):
Sentinel:
"When a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you..."
Hex:
"Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 necrotic damage to the target whenever you hit it with an attack."
I think there is a case for saying that Hex would work with MM if Sentinel does as well. The wording is the same - nothing about rolls listed - only an attack.
Not sure how I'd rule it but as of now I am leaning toward saying yes to Hex on MM, but that brings up the question of how many times Hex is added (i.e. each missile or each target).
texassnowman wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
I have no idea why that's there since you don't hit or miss with MM. It's possible that the spell was meant to be considered an automatic hit for purposes of triggering stuff that works on a hit. However that's not what the spell says in the version we have (unlike previous editions where it was specifically stated in the spell). In this case, "hitting with a dart" means nothing outside of saying that each dart can target a different creature within the range of the spell because that's what it says. You didn't hit the target via an attack roll so you don't proc hex. You did do an attack so you proc sentinel.
I would recommend sending a tweet to Jeremy Crawford about it for those who need further clarification.
A hit or miss is always the result of an attack roll by definition. Hex does not work with MM and never will unless they errata the spell to state that each dart automatically hits a target for purposes of proc'ing stuff like hex.
Rogues can't use Uncanny Dodge against Magic Missiles, or fireballs. In the latter case, that is what Evasion is for.
Noctaem wrote:
Byakugan01 wrote:
texassnowman wrote:
texassnowman wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
texassnowman wrote:
texassnowman wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
There's a lot of nonsense in this thread. Let's put it in simple terms: All spells that require attack rolls are attacks. Not all attacks require attack rolls.
You can say that magic missile and fireball are not attacks because they don't have attack rolls, and therefore don't benefit from effects that are triggered by attacks ... but you're creating a ponderous precedent because now a lot of spells will no longer be influenced by effects that intentionally limit or prevent attacks. The argument on whether Magic Missile should or shouldn't trigger Hex shouldn't require arcane legal definitions of "attack" but instead just boil down to "is it really bad for your game if it does?"
If the two combine to create an extra 3d6 damage to one target, than that can be pretty potent at early levels, but the extra damage is still equivalent to a single casting of burning hands, which is another possible use for their 1st level spell-slot. It's a cool "nova" but it doesn't create that great of a damage spike in the long-run. At later levels, the player could burn higher level spell-slots to get additional 1d6+1d4+1 damage per higher spell slot. That's definitely more than the designer intended, but is it actually problematic? A 3rd level version of magic missile + hex then would yield 5d6+5d4+5. A fireball uses the same slot and does 8d6 damage but to multiple targets. Both have their pros and cons. I don't really have an opinion on it yet, but I'm not convinced yet that Hex+Magic Missile is going to be a problem.
[Edit: Forgot the 5th magic missile from the 3rd level spell-slot.]
Yunru wrote:
texassnowman wrote:
Everybody needs to calm down. If no one can reach an agreement, then it's time to stop beating a dead horse and move on. Debates are meant to be solved, disputes are meant to be finished with one side accepting that they are incorrect. When neither side does so, it's not a debate or dispute, it's an argument. Now I'm not the creator of this thread, but I'm hard-pressed to report the both of you for animosity and argumentative attitudes. Now, as far as text is concerned, texassnowman is correct, Magic Missile states...
"You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4+1 force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously, and you can direct them to hit one creature or several."
And Hex states...
"You place a curse on a creature that you can see within range. Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 necrotic damage to the target whenever you hit it with an attack. Also, choose one ability when you cast the spell. The target has disadvantage on all ability checks made with the chosen ability. A remove curse cast on the target ends this spell early."
Now, Hex states that it deals its extra damage on an attack that hits. Magic Missile isn't specified to be an attack in the game's mechanics, but I'd be hard-pressed not to call it one. It's not an Area of Effect spell and offers no saving throw. It doesn't have an attack roll and isn't called an attack, but ruling that it functions as an "Attack without an attack roll that automatically hits" is probably the only way to make sense of the damn spell.
transcendantviewer wrote:
I've said all I can honestly. Each person believes they are right (which they should, otherwise why is it being discussed?!), and if someone has tweeted, then we can find out once it gets answered. Honestly I have said a few times that I can see both sides, I just feel that the rules support reading the word hit to mean hit. Could very well be an oversight and they meant things to be worded differently, or the intent was for Hex to not apply to things like Magic Missile. If so then fine, I've said from the start that if someone shows me where it says that a hit isn't a hit then great, I'll admit that the other way of reading is better. Does not matter to me one bit though because it has never come up for me. If people start acting high and mighty then that's fine, I don't take offense to it. We all see make mistakes because we are human, so if I was incorrect on this then great! If not then I hope the other side is gracious enough to admit they were wrong. Won't bother me if they don't admit as much though, because again, I do not care. It's a place for discussion and having someone disagree with you is not a shot at you as a person, it's just their opinion. I was wrong about my reading and interpretation in the discussion about mounts, and I admitted as much because honeslty who gives a flying flip?! I love playing D&D and that's why I come here. I like the rules and I like knowing how they work, thus I come here and enjoy the discussion and debate.
Anyway, I hope we get an answer on this but if not then oh well 
.
Noctaem wrote:
Jeremy Crawford has already confirmed that Magic Missile does NOT trigger Hex damage: http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/06/26/attack-and-special-attack/.
@seekay“If you’re making an attack roll, you’re making an attack.” Is the inverse also true? Eg does MM trigger Hex? The inverse isn't true. Some special attacks, like grappling (PH, 195), don't include an attack roll. @mikemearls
— Jeremy Crawford (@JeremyECrawford) June 13, 2015
@seekayThanks! A spell without a roll like Magic Missile or Burning Hands still isn’t an attack (eg for Hex), right? Correct. If there's no attack roll or an effect isn't called an attack, it's not an attack. @mikemearls
— Jeremy Crawford (@JeremyECrawford) June 13, 2015
Well there you go. So you can have something be an attack, however not have an attack roll. Magic Missile does not have an attack roll, ergo it can't proc hex. But it can still proc Sentinel because it's still an attack. And this further confirms that things which require a hit (ex: Hex, Uncanny Dodge, etc..) or miss, automatically require an attack roll because that's the only way to hit or miss. (they would have to specifically call out that they still meet the requirement via special rules). You don't hit or miss with grapple, shove, etc.. They don't use attack rolls either. It's an important distinction to make.
Thanks Drunemeton.
I'm okay with that.
Noctaem wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
texassnowman wrote:
Breath weapons don't count as attacks either. So if one wizard maintains invisibility on another that maintains a true polymorph, the polymorphed Wizard can fly around as a dragon breathing fire on an entire city and no one but the 2 of them will know what is happening. The Invisible Red Dragon can also use its Legendary Action Wing Attack to deal bludgeoning damage and prone to groups of enemies at the end of an enemy's turn and then fly up to safety.
Or a 10th level circle of the moon druid can cast invisibility on himself, and then turn into a Wind Elemental, and stay invisible while using Whirlwind on groups of enemies and no one will know what the **** is happening.
A Fire or Water elemental can do the same invisible damage combo. Invisible fires burning all your enemies to death is hilarious, and still not an attack.
And what can the DM do about it? The other baddies will see their friends screaming while their skin melts off with no visible flames. It's horrifying!
Coredump00 wrote:
Undrhil wrote:
There is a seperate thread on MM and Mirror Image :P
But with the current wording and tweet it means two things:
1. You cannot redirect Magic Missile, that's a downside to MI.
2. Magic Missiles cannot destroy the Images, and that's good for Mirror Image.
Kangodo wrote:
LordCyler wrote:
texassnowman wrote:
texassnowman wrote:
Coredump00 wrote: