Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Huntsman57 Nov 09, 2014 16:17:46	Some creatures in the MM have an adjustment to their CR when they gain the benefit of their lair, and the associated lair actions. Likewise, there is a rule variant for Dragons to cast spells (as they should be able to do). Yet, under the dragon section in the MM I don't see a CR adjustment for a Dragon when it is in its lair, nor for if we are allowing the dragon to cast spells. Has this been ommited by accident? Intentionally? Am I just missing it?
#2 Timborama Nov 09, 2014 20:53:07	This is intentional. Compare the lair actions of Dragons and something like a Beholder. Yes it adds an effect, but not enough to add +1 CR. Maybe +1/2 CR, sure, but that's not really a thing.   Also, spellcasting, while giving the monster more options, is still limited by the action economy. This is why Spellcasting is not seen as a direct contribution to CR. Again, it may add +1/2 CR or so (due to versatility/utility in combat) but they can still only cast Ice Storm OR use their Breath Weapon (or Multiattack).   Obviously, a DM can adjust otherwise, and the DMG will likely mention this. Spells like Shield or Power Word Kill are a bit more "powerful" for a monster with limited options, or spells like Feeble Mind or Mage Armor which it can "pre cast" before the PCs get there. But hey, CR is just kinda a guideline for the DM to utilize anyway. Some spells are more (or less!) powerful based on party composition
(Reply to #2) Huntsman57	Timborama wrote:
#4 intently Nov 11, 2014 7:45:00	The most dangerous use for dragon spells in pre-combat: buffing itself and its allies and preparing the battlespace. A dragon that has time to cast preperatory spells is far more dangerous than a dragon who has to cast its buffs during combat.   Logically, just like any other caster, a dragon that is surprised should immediately flee to a safe distance and cast its buffs before returning to combat.
#5 DaveDash Nov 12, 2014 1:39:24	The golden dragon's lair abilities are pretty good too.
#6 Huntsman57 Nov 12, 2014 6:36:58	So once again, can we really say that the lair abilities and spells do not increase a dragon's DR?
(Reply to #6) AaronOfBarbaria	Huntsman57 wrote:
#8 Huntsman57 Nov 12, 2014 7:33:16	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
(Reply to #8) AaronOfBarbaria	Huntsman57 wrote:
#10 Huntsman57 Nov 12, 2014 8:12:47	Nobody would debate that, but we aren't talking about just "any benefit." Some dragon lair abilities, if used correctly by the dragon (as I imagine even a rather dim white dragon would likely do with its centuries of experience) are the difference between a fight that is a moderate challenge for the players, and one in which they are fighting for their very lives.   Hopefully the DMG will provide greater illumination.
#11 AaronOfBarbaria Nov 12, 2014 8:29:26	"if the DM uses it correctly" is not a metric by which CR can be set (nor is it one I think we should even try to set CR by) - otherwise the printed CR of every monster would be entirely irrelevant because a DM can use even the frailest and non-threatening seeming creatures in just the right way to leave players fighting for their character's lives.
#12 Huntsman57 Nov 12, 2014 8:39:41	A DM can always run a creature as weaken that its full potential, but its CR should be based on its full potential.   Additionally, what makes a beholder's lair ability valuable enough to call for a CR boost and the dragon's lair does not?
(Reply to #12) AaronOfBarbaria	Huntsman57 wrote:
#14 Timborama Nov 12, 2014 12:43:39	Simarly, I believe a (variant demi?)Lich can use a Lair action to cast a spell. So it basically gives it 2 turns. So yes, a dragon can impede or control you in some way. But Beholders and Lichs can disintegrate you when it's not even their turn...   Again, that's why Beholder lair actions and Dragon ones are seen a "+CR" worthy, to me!