Quick question for the forums, and a minor issue really, but does anyone find the dragonborns breath weapon to be a bit underwhelming?
It's not like it totally sucks, but for the damage it does, seems little "off". Has anyone tried running the breath weapon as a bonus action as opposed to an attack action? Just curious...thanks for any feedback or discussion.
I thought it was a bonus action...?
It's an action:
Breath Weapon. You can use your action to exhale
destructive energy.
Yep I see now. Well I have to say we've been playing it as a bonus action and it has been fine.
I can see it as a bit less potent than expected, but as a Core Race, it's a pretty cool bonus ability. To be honest, though, I'd have liked to see the Dragonborn gain a cantrip of the appropriate damage type in addition to the one breath attack.
transcendantviewer wrote:
the dragonborn is an underwhelming race all together.
I mean Dragonborn give Charisma, but Half elf are so good in 5e that any charisma based class should be half elf (from an optimizing point of view) very few build would work better using a different race then half elf when using a charisma based character. Especially the paladin who with a Dragonborn will be able to have both strenght and Charisma to 16, but the half elf can start with 16 strenght, Constitutio and Charisma. then trading the resistance to 1 elemental type, with advantage VS enchantement and immunity to sleep, trading the breath weapon with +2 skill proficiency and a extra language etc....
I would love to see the dragonborn boosted a little bit to reach the Half elf potentiel, giving him some dragonic abilities like darkvision 60ft, and an a Weak frightful presence: something like:
When a dragonborn deal damage he can use his bonus action and do a Intimidation(Cha) check agains the target(s) Wisdom save. If the target fail he his frighten until the end of the dragonborn next turn. The dragon born can use this ability 1 per short rest.
Then changing the breath weapon to be Charisma based would make it more interesting, since it woul dmake it easier to get a decent DC on the feature.
So the dragonborn could use his breath weapon and anyone taking damage from it, could become frighten if the dragonborn used his bonus action for the weak frightful presence. The ability would also work great with a sorcerer casting fireball.and firghtening everyone caught in the fireball radius. and even the paladin who attack the target in front of him can still benefit from it since it would also apply to the damage he deal with his weapon.
Now this dragonborn I would be able to compare against a half elf and say they seem equivalent. The dragonborn got some good special abilities that can be use a limited among of time. while the half elf got abilities that are weaker, but always present and more felxible (+1 in 2 stat of your choice plus the standard +2Cha)
alienux wrote:
Dragonborn are a mechanically dull race. Their resistance is a niche benefit and their breath weapon is a joke. You can do oodles more damage with just about any other attack mode. It's only good from a theme perspective, or if you fight loads of mooks.
The solution I pondered up wasn't to make the attack a bonus action, but rather:
make it useable more frequently.
Make iy do more damage
maybe both
I'd also give them something else. Maybe an AC boost for their scales. I like the idea of a fear effect.
Both tiefling and dragonborn suffer from their race's natural abilities being low on the damage side. For the dragonborn, I simply went over to the Half-Dragon in the MM, and stole their breath weapon, and adjust it as necessary as we level.
I also permitted players to swap the +2 STR for +2 CON, making them better at being dragon sorcerers, as well as allowing their breath to count as a spell for puroses of sorcerer abilities.
Personally I think the Dragonborn's breath weapon is just fine (though if I were forced to choose an improvement, I would make its damage dice d8's instead of d6's). I've been playing one and he is quite successful. The breath weapon is really just a novelty act to frighten folks or to cheaply AoE blast trash mobs like stirges and such.
QwertyAzerty wrote:
Dyndrilliac wrote:
Breath weapon is basicly burning hands. Use it when you need an AoE attack, not against a single target.
But overall, yes, i agree dragonborn are on the bottom half of the races. Bonus action breath weapon is probably fine. Maybe reduce it to d4's.
Though i'd still put them above tieflings. Poor race hardly get's anything.
I like Dragonborn. They make great barbarians since they can use the breath weapon to deal nonphysical AoE damage even while raging. At 20th level you can have a DC 21 breath weapon, which is a higher DC than spellcasters will have. Charisma also helps with Intimidating Presence.
Stormborn20 wrote:
No mistake that Dragonborn do make nice Barbarians, but that's sadly about it, and they're competing with the dwarves, humans, and half-orcs for being awesome barbarians. They make pretty poor sorcerers and paladins, two of the classes they're supposed to excell at! I'd say they make good Valor Bards if they weren't so MAD.
I agree that dragonborn and tieflings are the two weakest of the core races, though. Its a hard call which of the two is better; while +STR and +CHA have more synergy working together than +CHA and +INT, the tiefling and dragonborn are on par with elemental resistances (fire is the most common elemental damage), and tiefling comes with darksight, though dragonbreath is used more often.
The only other race that is as problematic is the drow, and that's because that sunlight penalty is generally considered so harsh as to be wildly unplayable in a wide varitey of situations, and in situations without sunlight, the race has access to some very potent abilities, even the cantrip is nice. Its the old "mermaid PC" problem - either you're a metaphorical fish out of water, or you're in water and kicking arse. And those problems are of a different sort than tieffer/d-born.
Mephi1234 wrote:
The main problem with the Dragonborn breath weapon is that it got nerfed, hard, since 4E. It used to be a minor action, which allowed a Dragonborn character to use the breathweapon, move, then attack, all in one turn. That was fine for a racial ability which isn't meant to be a primary attack ability.
But now using the breath weapon takes a full action, forcing a Dragonborn player to make the choice between using the breath weapon OR making another attack, in most cases. So the breath weapon ends up being basically useless; a melee attack or a spell is nearly always a better choice.
JackOfAllTirades wrote:
I don't understand what the whining is about. The breath weapon is a decent attack depending on the character's class build and situation. It's an extra AOE attack that doesn't take up other resources. The stat bumps aren't horrible, DR is a handy feature.
They don't get darkvision, but that rarely matters unless the entire party has darkvision. Seems like a solid race for several classes.
As far as comparing to 4E ... what's the point? It was a different game.
Then again I have a dwarven monk so obviously I'm doing something wrong.
As the song says, haters are gonna hate ...
OoftaMeg wrote:
Hey All,
Thanks for the replies and based upon the reponses it does seem that most of us feel that while it's not "terrible" it's cetainly not something "defining" or to be feared. So, I'd like to change the tone of this thread to "How would we "fix" the breath weapon" (assuming you agree, it needs a boost).
Let's try and stay away from "the dragonborn" sucks arguements, because everyone's opinion will differ on that. Let's focus on the breath weapon itself. How would you see it being more effective, but not overpowering?
My suggestion (some of this based upon feedback from you guys):
Increase the damage die to D8 and make the save DC based upon CON or CHR (players choice).
I don't think we need to add a fear mechanic as that just adds complexity, but basing the breath weapon save on the players choice of CON or CHR, sort of adds a mechanical element to the "fear theme" (thier breath weapon is scary and if the DC is even a point highter, in 5e, that's a big deal).
Additional thought (I'm tenative on this idea becuase I don't want to over do it), in addition to the above suggestion...add a fixed number to the damage. Maybe equal to the CON or CHR mod (whatever the player selected for the save DC) or equal to the Prof bonus? I'm not sure if increasing the damage to D8 and adding a fix bonus is to much, or if just one would be enough. Then again, it's is a "once between extended rest power" so maybe it should have a bit more impact?
I think the problem is that some people want to make a racial feature a defining attack for a character, and it's not meant to be. I think your choice of class and build options should define your character, not your race.
I think that if it's taken in context of what other races get, it's fine as written. Doing auto damage to up to 6 medium creatures is not horrible. Then again I had a 4E dragonborn and I don't remember using his breath weapon after the first few levels, I always had something better to do with my minor actions.
But compare to ... I don't know ... any other race.
- Dwarves don't really get a lot and lost minor action healing.
- Elves get proficiencies that might be useful but lost teleporting.
- Halflings are lucky which is pretty cool for 5% of your attacks. Naturally stealthy is pretty cool, once again largely dependent on how the DM handles stealth.
- Humans get a decent overall bump but it's not going to have a huge effect at higher levels
- Gnomes have some fun flavor, but nothing that's going to help much offensively
- Half elves get some of the better stat bumps but, once again that probably fades in importance as you get to higher levels
- Half orcs do a little extra damage on 5% of their hits.
- Tieflings are pretty meh as well.
Some races get an extra point or two and have some nice "fluff". Halflings or wood elves that can take advantage of their stealth are pretty cool, but it depends largely on build and how your DM handles stealth.
Breath weapon is not very powerful but it is an AOE that does automatic damage and it scales with level. It can really fill in a hole for a melee character. Is it going to be useful very often for a dragonborn sorcerer? Probably not.
A dragonborn probably isn't going to be built around their breath weapon. The breath weapon is never going to be their primary go-to-attack after the first few levels. Every once in a while it will be useful. I don't see a problem with that.
@ ooftameg
Appreciiate the feedback, but most of the items that other races have are either always in effect, or have a chance to be in effect, all the time. The breath weapon is once...between extended rests. I do think that's perhaps a bit weak for what is bascially a once a day ability. And I don't compare 5e to 4e, it's apples to oranges (actually, I dont really even consider 4e to be D&D, lol). And I have to disagree on the racial "defining" features. Races have had definining featurs since 1st edition. More than one actually, in most cases. The breath weapon is a defining feature. I'm not talking about adding anything new, just adjusting something thats alreadyt there.
What I can pull from your reply though is that you don't think it needs any "tweaking". And that's cool. I'm honestly still on the fence about it myself, but I could see some small bump.
I would be one to lean towards less is more though, so I'm likey not one to give a fixed bonus AND a die type increase...but rather one or the other.
I think basing the save on CON or CHAR (players choice) and either increasing the damage die to d8 OR adding a fixed value of some sort (the attribute modifier perhaps?) are fair adjustments.
Lobo316 wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
It's better than a cantrip, as it hits an area and deals half damage on a successful save. At level 6, it's equal to burning hands. At 11 it's equal to burning hands in a 2nd level slot, and at 16 it is equal to burning hands in a 3rd level slot.
Because I have stats for a simple champion fighter sitting around, here's a comparison. At level 20, the champion fighter will probably deals approximately 57 damage if they hit on every attack; with +11 to hit against max 19 AC at that level (CR calculator, level 20), they're going to hit more than half the time (not crunching the numbers right now, as you won't always fight a CR 20).
Their breath deals 5d6 damage at this point. It's save for half. For a simple comparison, the DMG suggests spells that are save for no damage should be increased in damage by 25%. So instead of average 17.5, we can pretend it's average 22. If you can catch 3 creatures in it, that's average 66, which is now better than the level 20 fighter's full 4 attacks.
My point is that there is a time when it will be advantageous, so I'm not worried about it. You could spend a feat on a burning hands spell slot and it would never scale past 3d6.
If there is a fix that's needed for it, I'd be down with letting someone use Con or Cha as the casting stat. I'd also be fine with Str, Dex, or Con, as that's how it was done in late 4E (more forceful exhale, more accurate spit, more potent power). Toss an ability modifier onto it too if you think it's needed.