So I'm in a 5th ed. game with my buddies. 6-7 players. I am a moon circle druid and currently loving it. The party is between 6th-7th level.
With the wildshape ability, my group already thinks the druid class is a little over-powered (Basically having 2 extra lives per day as a beast in combat, heals, etc.).
I just hit 7th level and I get to choose a 4th level spell. Here is where my question comes in:
Conjure Woodland Beings (PHB pg. 226) allows me to summon fey creatures.
1 fey of CR2
2 fey of CR1
4 fey of CR1/2
or
8 fey of CR1/4
-That last one is the kicker. If I can summon 8 fey of CR 1/4, that means I can summon 8 Pixies (MM pg. 253).
Pixies can cast any of the following spells: confusion, dancing lights, detect evil and good, detect thoughts, dispel magic, entangle, fly, phantasmal force, polymorph, or sleep.
Q: Im not trying to power-game here, but what is to stop me from summoning 8 pixies and having them all cast polymorph on my party, turning them into beasts of CR7 rating (T-rex or Giant Ape) which are extremely powerful. Hell, I wont even get into the uses of those other spells. Is this something some of you DMs out there would just have to veto? Does this work RAW?
Sidenote: The spell does state "The DM has the creatures' statistics" and I am not sure if that was put in the PHB due to the MM not being out yet or if that is always how the spell is intended to be (DM gets to decide on the creatures every time...).
This works raw and is one of the more well-known exploits in 5e. Do not use this in play. It is game-breakingly over powered.
Thanks for the response. Yeah, I wasn't planning on actually doing it. It'll just ruin the game.
kalil wrote:
+2.
But you could summon 8 Sprites or 8 Blink Dogs, that'd be fun.
That assumes everyone wants to become a creature incapable of all their class functions. The fighters wouldn't want to lose all their special abilities, the casters won't want to have casting taken from them, rogues wouldn't be able to be rogue-y. You're also assuming everyone would fail a save against t he polymorph (if you cast it on the enemy).
It isn't over powered, per say. It's a whopper, mind you, but not over powered when you really consider the ramifications. Plus, how many times per day can this be done? Is it the right action for this particular combat? Etc.
DilboSwaggins wrote:
I wouldn’t be worried so much about the power level as I would be about burning game time. Often when one of my players uses summon monster or any of the variants they don’t have a good knowledge of that the creature does or their stats. Its wastes a huge amount of combat time waiting for them to look things up or resolve their turn. This waste more than the power level of what they summoned seems to hurt the other players the most.
That said there’s a lot of techniques to speed up combat if the player and DM use them. Otherwise I’d avoid bringing it into the game, or save it as purely a panic button.
One thing worth bearing in mind is that both Conjure Woodland Beings and Polymorph are concentration spells.
Meaning that if a pixie's concentration is broken (and they're very fragile - at 1hp, they're hard-pressed to survive getting hit by anything that would require a Concentration check), the Polymorph ends. And if your concentration is ever broken, the pixies vanish and take their magic with them.
As a DM, I think it's cool and totally makes sense. "Caster summons some pixies and asks for help for him and his friends" is a major recurring element of The Dresden Files, for example. And it lets you do some sweet things like "let's all turn into eagles and fly there", without expending a huge amount of resources.
And, yes, if everything goes your way having a party of seven Giant Apes can wreck shop pretty quickly...but it's also super easy for that to go horribly wrong. It's not hard for a creative DM to keep things in balance so that "We all pixieshift into X" isn't an automatic "I win" button.
Pixie will tell that they dont know what is a T-rex.
Or while all the party is on t-rex form, the pixie goes wander away and forget to come back!
Or while everybody is in T-Rex form it will be really important that everybody clap their hands simultaneously.
OoftaMeg wrote:
yes, it is overpowered, considering you get 8 polymorphs instead of the normal 1 For the same slot.
IMO: summoned creatures should not come with spells. There's a few other overpowered spellcasting summons like that.
But if they do, flying whales are more fun then T-rex.
[quote="DilboSwaggins"]
So I'm in a 5th ed. game with my buddies. 6-7 players. I am a moon circle druid and currently loving it. The party is between 6th-7th level.
With the wildshape ability, my group already thinks the druid class is a little over-powered (Basically having 2 extra lives per day as a beast in combat, heals, etc.).
I just hit 7th level and I get to choose a 4th level spell. Here is where my question comes in:
Conjure Woodland Beings (PHB pg. 226) allows me to summon fey creatures.
1 fey of CR2
2 fey of CR1
4 fey of CR1/2
or
8 fey of CR1/4
-That last one is the kicker. If I can summon 8 fey of CR 1/4, that means I can summon 8 Pixies (MM pg. 253).
Pixies can cast any of the following spells: confusion, dancing lights, detect evil and good, detect thoughts, dispel magic, entangle, fly, phantasmal force, polymorph, or sleep.
Q: Im not trying to power-game here, but what is to stop me from summoning 8 pixies and having them all cast polymorph on my party, turning them into beasts of CR7 rating (T-rex or Giant Ape) which are extremely powerful. Hell, I wont even get into the uses of those other spells. Is this something some of you DMs out there would just have to veto? Does this work RAW?
Based on page 266 of the Players Handbook, "...mental ability scores are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast." If you polymorphed one of your party members into a T-rex, he or she would eat the rest of the party! This spell is more of a temporary debuff spell or a hold the dragon as a starfish while you get past him. Even as a "Giant ape", the party member might act very differently than they would as a "Human" or whatever...
Simple house rule to fix Summon Woodland Creatures: change Pixies to CR 1 or 2.
They can keep their 1 HP. The only thing this really changes is their XP value, and if the PCs ever decide to go on a pixie killing rampage for the easy 1-hit kill XP, they can be on the receiving end of all those nasty spells.
The concentration part that people have mentioned isn't a factor really.
Again, let me reiterate that I will not be using this game-breaking combo, but:
-I cast the spell and get the 8 pixies. I have to concentrate on the spell. The pixies can poly the whole group into the giant apes or t-rexs or whatever, except for me, who they cast fly on, and we all just stay out of range during the combat while the party does the dirty work. This would be extremely effective in any situation where preparation/strategy is being implemented by the group (e.g. before entering a creatures lair etc.) It would take a highly intelligent creature in the MM or a spellcaster to understand what was happening, and at that point, the damage would already be done. Just 1 round of 6 Giant Apes would be devistating against any creature.
-The Conjure Woodland Creatures spell does not summon creatures that turn on you when you lose concentration. The creatures just vanish (The higher level versions do summon higher CR creatures that will turn on you when you lose concentration e.g. Elementals and higher CR Fay creatures).
--All I'm saying is it is very easy to avoid the things that would disrupt the concentration, it would just take creativity, preparation, and the right circumstances.
Nevvur wrote:
The problem, to me, is in the description of Conjure Woodland Beings that says "they obey any verbal commands that you issue to them". If it wasn't for this line, the pixies could smply refuse to cast the polymorph spell using the "Opposed to Violence" defense, as included in their description.
Which raises the question: which is more 'specific' - the spell or the creature description? Could the pixies be commanded to attack even though they "would sooner flee than get into a physical altercation with any enemy". Perhaps a bit off-topic.
Remove that one line from the spell description and the problem goes away. Personally, I think it should be anyway - woodland beings shouldn't become automatons through this spell, in my opinion.
DilboSwaggins wrote:
DilboSwaggins wrote:
It doesn't matter if the player knows what a T-Rex looks like, it only matters if the pixies know what a T-Rex is. In addition, if someone were to abuse this power remember that pixies are intelligent and mischevious. Use it too many times and you might have to answer to the "pixie league".
OoftaMeg wrote:
Look, "abusing" this combo means making it so that the group isn't having a good time and/or isn't creating an exciting story. Nobody acting in good faith would do that. Personally, I think summoning pixies to turn the whole party into rampaging dinosaurs is awesome... ONCE. After that, it is old hat and doesn't make for a very good time and only creates a repetitive story. Therefore, any player acting in good faith with the goals of play in mind will not do it more than once in my view.
If the DM and players keep their focus on the goals of play, these seemingly "overpowered" things are mitigated by frequency of use. The Picard Maneuver was shown on-screen one time. That's because if they used it every episode of TNG it would be boring as hell.
If the DM and players aren't focusing on the goals of play, why aren't they?
mellored wrote:
aurionshidhe wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
Polymorph is not intended for you to use as a buff in this way.
Based on page 266 of the Players Handbook, "...mental ability scores are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast." If you polymorphed one of your party members into a T-rex, he or she would eat the rest of the party! This spell is more of a temporary debuff spell or a hold the dragon as a starfish spell while you get past him. Even as a "Giant ape", the party member might act very differently than they would as a "Human" or whatever... By contrast, a druid's wildshape ability allows her to maintain her intellegence wisdom so that she can behave herself and not eat the party if she turns into an allosaurus or whatever.
Malthirian wrote:
Malthirian wrote:
iserith wrote:
menakles wrote:
^
Exactly menakles. Just the same as lycanthropy and such, once polymorphed, the DM gets control. The TRex (or ape) will likely: Round 1 - intimidate anything close; Round 2 - charge the closest thing; Round 3+ - fight until wounded (half hp) then flee.
That's my thoughts.
Oh, and being summoned beings will take direction from verbal commands, so the arguement of them being mischevious I think is moot - if ordered to polymorph the group into something, then they would obey.
How about the Pixies beg you not to make them do such a horrible thing while doing it, since they are compelled. Then after they leave, they tell their mother what the big bad druid made them do.
K-Ray
Malthirian wrote:
I think a t-rex has enough intelligence to manage "eat that, not this".
Just don't expect him to find his way out of a Maze spell.
mellored wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
iserith wrote:
CahPahkah wrote:
I'm talking hypothetically here - it's never come up so I've never had to make a ruling.
It might be fun for some people (and if it is, then have a pack of T-Rexes rip through your world), but I see several issues.
First off, pixies are intelligent and mischevious by nature. They may follow the letter of the request, but not give you exactly what you want (similar to the instructions for how to balance the wish spell). If you summon pixies on a regular basis the first time it might be kind of fun, but after a while they're going to get bored of the game. They may obey you while summoned, but there's nothing stopping them from finding you and playing tricks after you dismiss them.
Even if the pixies know what a T-Rex is, when they polymorph everyone into T-Rexes there are several issues (in my opinion)
- T-Rexes are not intelligent enough to speak, and I would say they don't understand any language. Monsters that comprehend languages state that they comprehend a language (like zombies). Try giving verbal instructions to a lion and see how far it gets you.
- They are not under any type of mental control.
- They are going to do whatever a large predator is going to do if thrown into the middle of combat: eat/defend itself/run away if hurt.
- They may or may not recognize other party members. I'd probably give them an intelligence check (based on their new intelligence) to recognize friend from foe.
I didn't mean to turn this into another never-ending thread, this is just how I would handle what would be a really over-powered exploit. I prefer to think things through to a logical conclusion and come up with in-game reasons why it won't work, rather than just say "no" ... your mileage may vary.
Coming up with in-game reasons why something won't work is still saying "No." It's just less direct.
If there's a problem with the tactic making the game less of a good time than it could be or creating unexciting stories, then that's something to address with the players directly in my view. A player acting in good faith will want to help achieve the goals of play.
Any good bad guy leader, knows his opponent. If you do the same thing every single time, there's no surprise left in it, and any DM worth his salt will then custom tailor his bad guys and tactics to specifically defeat said action. Try getting out of a 40' deep pit as a stupid T-Rex with tiny arms. It's a turkey shoot.
Or you could just Cheese Mage him to death with Acid Splash. 
iserith wrote:
CahPahkah wrote:
iserith wrote:
iserith wrote:
Yeah, definitely, a group that has identified their goals of play and are all working together to achieve them makes for a great gaming experience. Sometimes, even among gamers that are like-minded, "problems" like this tactic can arise and it's helpful to just ask yourself, "Is this thing I'm doing helping us achieve our goals?" If it isn't, then use it once (or not at all) and be done with it. The game tells us what the goals of play are by default, so it makes it easy to just start there. Personally, I think summoning pixies to polymorph the party into dinosaurs is freaking awesome - once. After that, I'd prefer it (as DM or player in that group) that the druid come up with other cool ideas.
When it comes to a dysfunctional player (or DM), that is a real problem and one that I find is solved by simply not gaming with that kind of person if they aren't willing to work with the group to achieve the goals of play. I'm all for optimized characters and kicking ass with awesome tactics and builds, but only if it allows us to have a good time and create exciting stories. Powergaming tendencies need to be tempered by that consideration in my view.
The DM has the final say on this and other matters. I simply wished to point out that it does not appear that polymorph (a 4th level spell) was designed to buff characters into CR 8 creatures. If it used in this way with the players in my group, I would rule that there might be unexpected consiquences of doing so...
I think it could be nice one time, to rescue the group from a bad situation. The group could have good moment and something you talk about years later. After this i would not permit it - it would just kill the fun.
In case someone might be interested, here is one more reason why I don't see how Polymorph can transform a PC into a high CR creature and them use it to their advantage as was proposed. Druids receive Polymorph as a 4th level spell. They receive Animal Shapes as as an 8th level spell which actually states that characters keep their Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, which means that they could continue to act as the people that they were before the casting of the spell. If DMs allow for the use of Polymorph to do as was suggested earlier in this post, then Animal Shapes, which again is an 8th level spell, is useless. Play the game in whatever way is fun for you, but these are my thoughts.
There's more to consider with Animal Shapes:
- It targets more than one creature (up to eight allies, if I'm not mistaken)
- The CR limit is lower, but does not depend on the target; very useful for chump pets (like familiars and summoned steeds)
- The spell's user can change any target's shape multiple times throughout the duration. Among other things, this means that, so long as a target's animal form isn't killed, they can basically ignore any damage they take.
Still not a top pick for an eighth level spell, but its definitely ahead of polymorph either way.
[quote="ShinQuickMan"]
There's more to consider with Animal Shapes:
- It targets more than one creature (up to eight allies, if I'm not mistaken)
- The CR limit is lower, but does not depend on the target; very useful for chump pets (like familiars and summoned steeds)
- The spell's user can change any target's shape multiple times throughout the duration. Among other things, this means that, so long as a target's animal form isn't killed, they can basically ignore any damage they take.
Still not a top pick for an eighth level spell, but its definitely ahead of polymorph either way.
[/quote]
The original topic of this thread I believe was about summoning 8 pixies using Conjure Woodland Beings (a 4th level spell) and then using the pixies to turn the party into T-rex or other beasts - however I do see the point you are making about Animal Shapes. I am finished arguing about this.... 