Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 dbsquirl Jun 07, 2015 11:06:37	Does being proficient in unarmed strikes (monk levels, Tavern Brawler, aarakocra) let you apply Duelist Fighting Style damage to your unarmed strikes? They seem to both count as weapons and also count as unarmed. Does being proficient mean you're never able to fulfill the "no other weapons" clause, because you're always "armed"? If you can apply the damage bonus to your unarmed strikes, does a Monk get to use Martial Arts/Flurry with your unarmed strike and get the bonus damage on every hit, since MA/Flurry don't specify that you hit with a different unarmed strike?
#2 jaelis Jun 07, 2015 12:31:31	Dueling Style only applies when you're wielding a weapon in one hand. Unarmed strikes are maybe sometimes considered a weapon and sometimes not, but I wouldn't ever consider them a weapon wielded in your hand. So I'd say no.
#3 Macv12 Jun 07, 2015 15:39:32	Agreed. They're a weapon to the extent that they count as a "weapon attack," as opposed to a "spell attack." But they're a "weapon" whose definition is "not a weapon," so definitely don't work with Duelist, which applies when "wielding a melee weapon."   Plus, they're on the Simple weapons table, meaning almost every class is proficient with them. So no one who has the Duelist feature would be able to use it, they'd always have their unarmed strike available. (No one ever said you needed a hand to use it!)
#4 DoctorBadWolf Jun 07, 2015 19:42:03	IDK. The Unarmed Strike is a weapon. By the rules, it's a weapon like any other, except that you basically can just choose whether you're weilding it or not without having to worry about action economy. So, when using it, you're weilding the Unarmed Strike or Unarmed Attack or whatever the name of the weapon listing is, and when you're not, you're not.   I don't really see much of a balance issue here, either, outside of maybe multiclassing, but there are definately bigger things to worry about with mc exploits.   Also, IIRC, unarmed attacks don't require a free hand? You can just kick people?   Definately could use clarification, but to me it seems like any character (since it's a simple weapon) can decide at any given time whether they are weilding the unarmed attack weapon or not, no matter what is in their hands.
#5 jaelis Jun 07, 2015 20:22:39	Well if you want to consider balance, I wouild worry it makes a 1 level dip into fighter too strong for a monk.
(Reply to #5) DoctorBadWolf	jaelis wrote:
#7 Nevvur Jun 07, 2015 23:31:11	Here's the discussion from like... last year.   http://community.wizards.com/forum/rules-questions/threads/4116101
#8 randl Jun 08, 2015 0:33:59	When I rule on this, I look at the intent of Dueling Fighting Style.  To me it is to add additional damage to a player that is giving up normally greater damage options of using a bigger weapon (two-handed) or making a bonus action attack with a second weapon.  Based on this, I rule that Dueling can add it's bonus damage to Unarmed attacks if (and only if) a bonus action attack is not made.  So to get the +2 damage, the Monk would need to forgo the Martial Arts or Flurry attack since that would in essence be wielding and additional weapon.  I would rule this way for a Polearm Master staff wielded 1 handed as well.  The only bonus action attack I may allow would be the Cleave on GWF since it can be done by a one haned weapon as well, and I wouldn't give that attack the damage bonus.
#9 Macv12 Jun 08, 2015 3:39:12	I would allow it on a fighter who wants to be a "brawler" and shore up his offenses, since otherwise none of the offensive styles would apply. Duelist gives a slight improvement to the worst offensive options (no big weapon, no second weapon), and unarmed strike definitely qualifies.   I wouldn't allow it for a monk, who gets all kinds if compensation already. Pretty much anyone else would only choose unarmed as a flavor option, so this takes the sting off of that a bit.
#10 Saeviomagy Jun 08, 2015 5:15:58	Simply put, a monk is not a damage powerhouse. It really doesn't matter if you let them use duellist. They still won't be particularly competitive in terms of damage. It's also not good enough to make it a guaranteed level dip.
#11 DoctorBadWolf Jun 08, 2015 10:28:17	The bigger issue for me is that it's nonsensical that the system doesn't include defensive weapons, such as the main gouche, that are used in the off hand, but aren't used to attack. Those weapons need to exist, and be usable with Deulist, IMO.
#12 jaelis Jun 08, 2015 10:48:41	DoctorBadWolf wrote:
(Reply to #12) DoctorBadWolf	jaelis wrote:
#14 jaelis Jun 08, 2015 12:45:15	Guess I misunderstood, I thought you wanted to have a main gauche that wasn't a weapon but gave say +1 AC much like a shield. That fits very easily into the existing system I think, which was the basis of my comment.   But it seems maybe you really want something more complicted than that.
#15 Greenstone.Walker Jun 08, 2015 15:57:46	jaelis wrote:
(Reply to #14) DoctorBadWolf	jaelis wrote:
#17 DoctorBadWolf Jun 08, 2015 16:13:48	also, it doesn't need any concept of active parrying. just an ac bonus works fine.
#18 Captain_Kobold Jun 08, 2015 16:15:20	I generally regarded the use of the main-gauche or sai to be the advanced techniques represented by the Dual Wielder feat and its AC bonus.   Even without the feat, you can still use a main-gauche in the same general manner as it was actually used: an option available when you couldn't bring your primary weapon to bear.
(Reply to #16) Macv12	DoctorBadWolf wrote:
(Reply to #19) DoctorBadWolf	Macv12 wrote:
(Reply to #18) DoctorBadWolf	Captain_Kobold wrote:
(Reply to #21) Macv12	DoctorBadWolf wrote:
#23 Captain_Kobold Jun 09, 2015 10:55:17	DoctorBadWolf wrote:
#24 dbsquirl Jun 09, 2015 16:00:13	This thread certainly got terribly derailed from my original question. People yelling at each other about weapons, when my original question involved unarmed strikes. Please don't. I'm definitely interested in hearing more thoughts about unarmed strikes being both weapons and not-weapons and how that affects weapon/unarmed strike dependent class features, but not interested in people going on about a main gauche or whatever.
#25 ORC_Nashira Jun 10, 2015 1:27:53	I've removed content from this thread because flaming/baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code of Conduct Here
#26 Clutchbone Jun 11, 2015 8:47:31	As to the original question, every character is proficient with their unarmed strikes, but unarmed strikes are not "weapons".   http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/ph_errata   EDIT: Jeremy Crawford's tweet regarding monks and unarmed strike.
#27 MasterNamer Jun 11, 2015 8:19:23	While they aren't weapons, unarmed strikes can still be used to make melee weapon attacks.