Durable feat question - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Undrhil Aug 30, 2015 9:57:31	If I take the Durable feat on a Sorcerer with a CON modifier of +3, does this mean I always regain maximum hit points when I spend hit dice? Or does Durable mean that if the total of the hit die roll is less than twice my CON modifier, I gain twice my CON modifier instead? If I spend a hit die (d6 for Sorcerer) and I roll a 4, my CON modifier is 3. So, with this roll, am I getting 4 + 3 = 7 (greater than 2x3, so no change) hit points? Or am I getting 4 (less than 2x3, so replace with 6) + 3 = 9 hit points? The relevent part of the Durable feat: When you roll a Hit Die to regain hit points, the minimum number of hit points you regain from the roll equals twice your Constitution modifier (minimum of 2).
#2 transcendantviewer Aug 30, 2015 11:30:05	It means that, in your instance, when you roll your hit die, if the result on the die is lower than your Constitution Modifier, you instead just treat that number as though it were your Constitution Modifier. So, for instance, if you roll your d6 and the number comes up a 1, it's instead treated as a 3, then you add your Constitution Modifier to that 3 and that's how many hit points you recieve.
#3 Danny_Montanny Aug 31, 2015 17:40:31	You'll never gain less than 6 (3x2) hit points from any roll you make rolling your Hit Die. You of course always add your Constitution modifier after you roll. So in your case, they'll always gain at least 9 unless they multiclass and roll above a 6 on a bigger die, or increase their Constitution modifier.
#4 AaronOfBarbaria Aug 31, 2015 19:05:02	Danny is wrong. Simply put, the "hit points regained from the roll" is hit die plus con mod if any, not just hit die.
#5 AndrewJO Aug 31, 2015 19:13:24	"minimum hit points you regain" So not the number you roll, but the number you gain, which is roll plus con modifier. Basically if you roll less than your con modifier, treat your roll as your con modifier.
#6 Yunru Aug 31, 2015 19:18:36	Which is a stupid way of reading it with no backing asides from possibly word of god. On the plus side though it sets a presedent, so whenever something refers to tolled dice it means after mods. Sorry, you can only crit if your total attack roll is 20, and other such nonsense.
(Reply to #5) Yunru	AndrewJO wrote:
#8 AaronOfBarbaria Aug 31, 2015 20:08:31	A roll is a die plus modifiers unless it specifically excludes modifiers - like how critical hit rules specify the roll on the die.
#9 AndrewJO Aug 31, 2015 20:28:51	I'm sorry if those 5 words were selective, let me post the entire PHB so that you can get the proper context :P Page 186, under Short Rest, "the player rolls the die and adds the character's Constition modifier to it. The character regains hit points equal to the total."
#10 Yunru Sep 01, 2015 6:30:01	Yup, and the part the die roll is responsible for is the bit without the Con mod.
#11 AndrewJO Sep 01, 2015 6:47:14	I have given you all the evidence that clearly states that it doesn't work the way you think it does. No one can give you more evidence than I have given you, and no one can give you sufficient evidence that it works how you believe it works. At this point, none of us can help you and you might as well just ask Jeremy Crawford for an official ruling.
#12 Danny_Montanny Sep 01, 2015 7:03:46	So let me get this right... As a variant Human Barbarian I want my guy to feel extra Durable and be able to recover from battle quickly. So I take the feat at 1st level. I have a CON of 16 so my total result for spending Hit Dice on a short rest is at least 6, allowing 3 from the roll and 3 from my mod. So my ability only kicks in 16.7% of the time when I use it? 33.3% of the time if I have the max 20 in the score? 50% of the time if I'm a 20th level Barbarian with a 24 CON?! Sure, that sounds balanced and worth taking... Ok, the Sorcerer (or any d6 HD class) is gonna get a 33.3% return on investment from the start IF they have a 16 CON. Sure, it'll eventually go up to 66.7% IF they focus on the stat... Feats are supposed to be powerful, though. Limiting the only power of this feat to what some of you are talking about makes it practically worthless.
(Reply to #10) AaronOfBarbaria	Yunru wrote:
(Reply to #12) AaronOfBarbaria	Danny_Montanny wrote:
#15 Danny_Montanny Sep 01, 2015 7:16:43	Specific beats general? Why word it the way they did when they could've just said; "The minimum number of hit points you gain when you roll a Hit Die to regain hit points equals twice your Constitution modifier." Why include the words "from the roll" at all?! So if you have a +1 CON mod, this thing doesn't work at all, because you're guaranteed to get a total of 2 regardless? Sure it'd be a boon if your con mod was +0 or -1, but hardly matching the power a feat is supposed to represent.
#16 jaelis Sep 01, 2015 7:16:58	FWIW, here's the only twitter about it I know: Q: There has been confusion over the durable feat and the meaning of "roll" does a 20 con wizard regain a min 10 or 15 hp w/ feat? Mearls: 10 - roll means die roll + mods. Anything that affects only the number yielded by the die will say so specifically. Q: The halfling lucky doesn't specify only the number on the die. So it only works on a roll of 1 after modifiers? Mike Mearls:‏ should specify natural 1 Q: nothing in 5e uses the term natural roll. See rogue reliable talent, champion crit range, etc. Mike Mearls: yeah, just looked at feat. the min roll + con mod application is fine. Q: so a class with d6 or d8 HD and a 20 con can use durable to get back more than max possible? Mike Mearls: yes Q: So Improved Critical scores a critical hit on a roll (+mod) of 19-20 since it doesn't specify it only affect the number !? Mike Mearls: just looked at the feat - the wording issue is there. should be result, not roll.
#17 AndrewJO Sep 01, 2015 7:19:07	Danny, does it make sense for a lvl 20 barbarian to heal a minimum of 21 when he expends a HD, when the maximum should be 19? Your barbarian also isn't going to get much use out of spell sniper, that doesn't make it a useless feat.
(Reply to #14) Danny_Montanny	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#19 AndrewJO Sep 01, 2015 7:26:38	The feat actor is highly situational and rarely comes into play, does that mean there's no benefit to it?
(Reply to #17) Danny_Montanny	AndrewJO wrote:
(Reply to #16) AaronOfBarbaria	jaelis wrote:
#22 AndrewJO Sep 01, 2015 7:39:28	Dude, I don't even understand your stance on this topic anymore. Your earlier post you complain that at lvl 20 a barbarian would only benefit from durable 50% of the time if it works how I said it works, but then when I point out that a lvl 20 barbarian with a +7 con mod would gain 21 HP from a HD if it works how you want it to work, you act like I don't know how a d12 works.
(Reply to #19) Danny_Montanny	AndrewJO wrote:
#24 AndrewJO Sep 01, 2015 7:49:52	If you're a wizard with a con of -1, you gain the benefit of durable on 1/3 of HD rolls, which is pretty power as the alternative is wasting HD on 1/6 of HD rolls with no benefit.
#25 jaelis Sep 01, 2015 7:57:44	AndrewJO wrote:
(Reply to #22) Danny_Montanny	AndrewJO wrote:
(Reply to #23) AaronOfBarbaria	Danny_Montanny wrote:
#28 AndrewJO Sep 01, 2015 8:11:06	Ok, I see your side now. You still want the triple con HP gain as long as double con doesn't exceed the HD maximum, correct? If you want to rule that way, fine, that's your prerogative as DM, but for everyone else who don't house rule things they don't like that's not how it works.
(Reply to #27) AndrewJO	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#30 AndrewJO Sep 01, 2015 8:20:36	If it was called "Restful Nap" instead of "Durable" I don't think Danny would have an issue with how it's worded.
(Reply to #28) Danny_Montanny	AndrewJO wrote:
(Reply to #30) Danny_Montanny	AndrewJO wrote:
#33 AndrewJO Sep 01, 2015 8:38:49	This is currently a three way discussion, and since I'm posting from a phone quotes are a pain in the ass, so I'm going to have to include your name in the post Danny, instead of just replying to one of your posts. You've made the argument that durable doesn't make you feel durable unless you're already durable, so I can assume that your issue is with the name of the feat. As for the house rule part, there is 0 evidence that durable functions the way you stated, so it'd be a house rule, not a ruling, for it to function that way.
#34 jaelis Sep 01, 2015 8:41:48	AndrewJO wrote:
(Reply to #33) Danny_Montanny	AndrewJO wrote:
#36 Yunru Sep 01, 2015 9:07:34	Or... you could just tweet Jeremy. Like I have.
#37 AndrewJO Sep 01, 2015 9:08:54	There have been 8 unique posters so far. At the time I said it was a three way discussion, you, Aaron and I were the majority posters. You know what they say about people with big feet, but that's also just a stupid saying. We make assumptions constantly. If I had said infer instead of assume, would that make it better? Can we get back to the topic,or do you wish to further derail this discussion?
(Reply to #36) AndrewJO	Yunru wrote:
#39 Undrhil Sep 01, 2015 19:10:17	AndrewJO wrote:
(Reply to #39) AaronOfBarbaria	Undrhil wrote:

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

Undrhil

Aug 30, 2015 9:57:31

If I take the Durable feat on a Sorcerer with a CON modifier of +3, does this mean I always regain maximum hit points when I spend hit dice? Or does Durable mean that if the total of the hit die roll is less than twice my CON modifier, I gain twice my CON modifier instead?

If I spend a hit die (d6 for Sorcerer) and I roll a 4, my CON modifier is 3. So, with this roll, am I getting 4 + 3 = 7 (greater than 2x3, so no change) hit points? Or am I getting 4 (less than 2x3, so replace with 6) + 3 = 9 hit points?

The relevent part of the Durable feat:

When you roll a Hit Die to regain hit points, the minimum number of hit points you regain from the roll equals twice your Constitution modifier (minimum of 2).

transcendantviewer

Aug 30, 2015 11:30:05

It means that, in your instance, when you roll your hit die, if the result on the die is lower than your Constitution Modifier, you instead just treat that number as though it were your Constitution Modifier. So, for instance, if you roll your d6 and the number comes up a 1, it's instead treated as a 3, then you add your Constitution Modifier to that 3 and that's how many hit points you recieve.

Danny_Montanny

Aug 31, 2015 17:40:31

You'll never gain less than 6 (3x2) hit points from any roll you make rolling your Hit Die. You of course always add your Constitution modifier after you roll. So in your case, they'll always gain at least 9 unless they multiclass and roll above a 6 on a bigger die, or increase their Constitution modifier.

AaronOfBarbaria

Aug 31, 2015 19:05:02

Danny is wrong. Simply put, the "hit points regained from the roll" is hit die plus con mod if any, not just hit die.

AndrewJO

Aug 31, 2015 19:13:24

"minimum hit points you regain" So not the number you roll, but the number you gain, which is roll plus con modifier. Basically if you roll less than your con modifier, treat your roll as your con modifier.

Yunru

Aug 31, 2015 19:18:36

Which is a stupid way of reading it with no backing asides from possibly word of god. On the plus side though it sets a presedent, so whenever something refers to tolled dice it means after mods. Sorry, you can only crit if your total attack roll is 20, and other such nonsense.

(Reply to #5)

Yunru

AaronOfBarbaria

Aug 31, 2015 20:08:31

A roll is a die plus modifiers unless it specifically excludes modifiers - like how critical hit rules specify the roll on the die.

AndrewJO

Aug 31, 2015 20:28:51

I'm sorry if those 5 words were selective, let me post the entire PHB so that you can get the proper context :P Page 186, under Short Rest, "the player rolls the die and adds the character's Constition modifier to it. The character regains hit points equal to the total."

#10

Yunru

Sep 01, 2015 6:30:01

Yup, and the part the die roll is responsible for is the bit without the Con mod.

#11

AndrewJO

Sep 01, 2015 6:47:14

I have given you all the evidence that clearly states that it doesn't work the way you think it does. No one can give you more evidence than I have given you, and no one can give you sufficient evidence that it works how you believe it works. At this point, none of us can help you and you might as well just ask Jeremy Crawford for an official ruling.

#12

Danny_Montanny

Sep 01, 2015 7:03:46

So let me get this right... As a variant Human Barbarian I want my guy to feel extra Durable and be able to recover from battle quickly. So I take the feat at 1st level. I have a CON of 16 so my total result for spending Hit Dice on a short rest is at least 6, allowing 3 from the roll and 3 from my mod. So my ability only kicks in 16.7% of the time when I use it? 33.3% of the time if I have the max 20 in the score? 50% of the time if I'm a 20th level Barbarian with a 24 CON?! Sure, that sounds balanced and worth taking...

Ok, the Sorcerer (or any d6 HD class) is gonna get a 33.3% return on investment from the start IF they have a 16 CON. Sure, it'll eventually go up to 66.7% IF they focus on the stat...

Feats are supposed to be powerful, though. Limiting the only power of this feat to what some of you are talking about makes it practically worthless.

(Reply to #10)

AaronOfBarbaria

(Reply to #12)

AaronOfBarbaria

#15

Danny_Montanny

Sep 01, 2015 7:16:43

Specific beats general?

Why word it the way they did when they could've just said; "The minimum number of hit points you gain when you roll a Hit Die to regain hit points equals twice your Constitution modifier." Why include the words "from the roll" at all?!

So if you have a +1 CON mod, this thing doesn't work at all, because you're guaranteed to get a total of 2 regardless? Sure it'd be a boon if your con mod was +0 or -1, but hardly matching the power a feat is supposed to represent.

#16

jaelis

Sep 01, 2015 7:16:58

FWIW, here's the only twitter about it I know:

#17

AndrewJO

Sep 01, 2015 7:19:07

Danny, does it make sense for a lvl 20 barbarian to heal a minimum of 21 when he expends a HD, when the maximum should be 19? Your barbarian also isn't going to get much use out of spell sniper, that doesn't make it a useless feat.

(Reply to #14)

Danny_Montanny

#19

AndrewJO

Sep 01, 2015 7:26:38

The feat actor is highly situational and rarely comes into play, does that mean there's no benefit to it?

(Reply to #17)

Danny_Montanny

(Reply to #16)

AaronOfBarbaria

#22

AndrewJO

Sep 01, 2015 7:39:28

Dude, I don't even understand your stance on this topic anymore. Your earlier post you complain that at lvl 20 a barbarian would only benefit from durable 50% of the time if it works how I said it works, but then when I point out that a lvl 20 barbarian with a +7 con mod would gain 21 HP from a HD if it works how you want it to work, you act like I don't know how a d12 works.

(Reply to #19)

Danny_Montanny

#24

AndrewJO

Sep 01, 2015 7:49:52

If you're a wizard with a con of -1, you gain the benefit of durable on 1/3 of HD rolls, which is pretty power as the alternative is wasting HD on 1/6 of HD rolls with no benefit.

#25

jaelis

Sep 01, 2015 7:57:44

(Reply to #22)

Danny_Montanny

(Reply to #23)

AaronOfBarbaria

#28

AndrewJO

Sep 01, 2015 8:11:06

Ok, I see your side now. You still want the triple con HP gain as long as double con doesn't exceed the HD maximum, correct? If you want to rule that way, fine, that's your prerogative as DM, but for everyone else who don't house rule things they don't like that's not how it works.

(Reply to #27)

AndrewJO

#30

AndrewJO

Sep 01, 2015 8:20:36

If it was called "Restful Nap" instead of "Durable" I don't think Danny would have an issue with how it's worded.

(Reply to #28)

Danny_Montanny

(Reply to #30)

Danny_Montanny

#33

AndrewJO

Sep 01, 2015 8:38:49

This is currently a three way discussion, and since I'm posting from a phone quotes are a pain in the ass, so I'm going to have to include your name in the post Danny, instead of just replying to one of your posts. You've made the argument that durable doesn't make you feel durable unless you're already durable, so I can assume that your issue is with the name of the feat. As for the house rule part, there is 0 evidence that durable functions the way you stated, so it'd be a house rule, not a ruling, for it to function that way.

#34

jaelis

Sep 01, 2015 8:41:48

(Reply to #33)

Danny_Montanny

#36

Yunru

Sep 01, 2015 9:07:34

Or... you could just tweet Jeremy. Like I have.

#37

AndrewJO

Sep 01, 2015 9:08:54

There have been 8 unique posters so far. At the time I said it was a three way discussion, you, Aaron and I were the majority posters. You know what they say about people with big feet, but that's also just a stupid saying. We make assumptions constantly. If I had said infer instead of assume, would that make it better? Can we get back to the topic,or do you wish to further derail this discussion?

(Reply to #36)

AndrewJO

#39

Undrhil

Sep 01, 2015 19:10:17

(Reply to #39)

AaronOfBarbaria