Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 blindhamster Feb 17, 2015 16:01:08	Hey folks, Eldritch knight and wizard use the same base spell list (but with restrictions) Would it be reasonable to allow the two classes to stack when multi classing? The current rule set really doesn't work well for a fighter/wizard that wants to focus more on casting as the only reason to enter eldritch knight for such a character is to get war magic really and it slows down progression on spells so thoroughly that it kind of feels pretty unplayable compared to other characters. In an ideal world a valor bard minus the music slant and all the skill and inspiration stuff but with war magic and the wizard spell list would be really great, I was thinking 7 eldritch knight 13 wizard getting level 8 wizard spells, 2 attacks, roughly d8hp war magic instead of the superior battle magic a valor bard would get doesn't seem especially unbalanced?
#2 Slyck314 Feb 17, 2015 17:08:58	So you want the wizards biggest benefit from leveling (access to higher level spells) without spending levels in the class. I think the eldritch knight is already designed to multiclass well with wizard and just boosting it more will be obcviosly more powerful. But hey, if thats what you want the go right ahead.
#3 celtwarrior Feb 17, 2015 17:11:31	when you ask if the " two classes to stack when multi classing" are you talking about in fashion different than outlined in the PHB?
#4 TomeOfTricksterBlood Feb 17, 2015 17:15:09	They do stack just a wizard level counts as '1' and 1 level of EK fighter counts as '1/3'   If you mean to bump the EK value from '1/3' to '1' I would say don't do it. It will make such a multiclass a no brainer to those who wish to exploit the problems that will arise in balance.
#5 blindhamster Feb 17, 2015 17:18:43	Trouble is, it actually doesn't multi class well with wizard based on how it's put together. Or at least, no better than any other spellcasting class does. But you're probably right that it's better, because compared to a valor bard it can only cast and attack with cantrips (instead of any spell they know) It can only cast level 7 spells (instead of level 9) It has less skills and fewer class abilities - particularly in the utility department It's not even like the bard has worse spells because of magical secrets allowing it to cherry pick the best spells from any list. Eldritch knight makes an excellent fighter with a bit of intelligence based magic, but there's no way to make even a good intelligence based spell caster that's also decent at fighting... There are three classes letting you do charisma based characters with spellcasting and 2 attacks a round - two of which get level 9 spells?
#6 slumgum Feb 17, 2015 17:22:28	Just play a non-musically themed bard?
#7 blindhamster Feb 17, 2015 17:26:22	I mean that rather than just the slots stacking as outlined in the multi class section (which is borked anyway) The actual spells known progression maybe should stack too? I.e. rather than a level 6 eldritch knight level 2 wizard knowing level 1 eldritch knight and level 1 wizard spells, but having level 2 slots, would it be game breaking to have them simply have level 2 wizard spells (maybe even at the expense of only getting one classes worth of cantrips) effectively because the two classes are int based and use the wizard spell list, treat whichever you get second a.little like the old prc rules I guess.
(Reply to #6) blindhamster	slumgum wrote:
#9 Slyck314 Feb 17, 2015 17:27:41	Its not hard to get a few weapon and armour proficiencies onto a full caster that will make it a capable melee combatant.. Eldritch knight 5 Wizard 15 would be a powerful spellcaster and still a force to recon with in melee.
#10 blindhamster Feb 17, 2015 17:45:39	I noted in the FAQ thread that the formula for multi class partial casters (paladin, ranger, eldritch knight etc) Seem to be wrong when compared to the actual classes (they get the slots when rounded up, rather than down). It seems like without war magic, there's really no point in going eldritch knight, but at least if you rounded up, the 13 wizard 7 eldritch knight would have level 7 wizard spells, level 2 eldritch knight spells and slightly more slots than if rounded down... more importantly it'd have less painful slot progression too if you round down and take 7 in ek then go into wizard you gain effectively nothing in terms of slots from the wizard level as you lose a level of slots from eldritch knight (count as a level 2 caster rather than level 3 which the pure eldritch knight did) then add the caster level back on.
#11 FrogReaver Feb 17, 2015 18:24:17	Make a new home brew wizard subclass that works similar to a war cleric
#12 RCanine Feb 18, 2015 5:40:44	One thing I forgot about the EK is that you still get all of the Fighter's bonus feats.
#13 Bait-hammer Feb 18, 2015 6:01:37	You also get action surge and the extra-attacks as an EK.
#14 QwertyAzerty Feb 18, 2015 6:01:53	I play a Eldritch knight 12/wizard 8 (currently EK8, Wizard2) and this work just fine. True at level 20 (EK12/Wiz8) I'll have spell slot lvl 6 but unable to learn spell lvl 6, but I'll still be able to cast fireball upgrade to level 6 if I want (do deal 11d6 damage) I will never learn disintegrate, but if I really wanted disintegrate I shoul dhave gone full wizard or at least take 11 wizard level,   No finding a way to get disintegrate by multiclassing less then 11 wizard level woul dunbalance the game.   Eldritch knight and Wizard multiclass together just fine since they both use Intellect as there spellcasting stats, the wizard level allow you to take some of the stample spell outside of the evocation/abjuration school.   Their is one comment I would like the EK knight to chance, instead of restricting us to Abjuration and evocation, why not letting us choose the 2 school we want our EK to specialized in? seriously, My EK concept doesn't need the evocation I would MUCH rather prefered transmutation instead since his concept is to buff himself then be the most bad-a$$ fighter ont he ground, he'll never reach 20 Intellect so the DC of my evocation spell will ALWAY be under the max making them less then optimized, fireball dealing only half damage because my DC is so low doesn't make it worth it unless fighting horde of small weak enemies (but those horde of small weak ennemy I can simply ignore them since they need a 20 to hit me even with the so called "bounded accuracy" and technically in my group there should be a real spellcaster able to AoE them way more efficiently them me.
#15 blindhamster Feb 18, 2015 7:00:25	Yeah, I'm sticking with paladin wizard, stat rolls are good enough to do it, and the result is the same attacks as ek 7 wiz 13 (the most ek I'd go as I wanted a caster that can fight rather than a fighter that can cast) It gets significantly better casting both in terms of power and variety with a smoother progression over the levels too. The 7th level fighter does get action surge and second wind which can be incredible and war magic is slightly better average damage than two attacks at higher levels cheers for the advise though folks
#16 blindhamster Feb 18, 2015 7:00:29	Yeah, I'm sticking with paladin wizard, stat rolls are good enough to do it, and the result is the same attacks as ek 7 wiz 13 (the most ek I'd go as I wanted a caster that can fight rather than a fighter that can cast) It gets significantly better casting both in terms of power and variety with a smoother progression over the levels too. The 7th level fighter does get action surge and second wind which can be incredible and war magic is slightly better average damage than two attacks at higher levels cheers for the advise though folks
(Reply to #6) thewilderness	slumgum wrote:
#18 FrogReaver Feb 18, 2015 17:35:32	I wouldn't be opposed to ruling that every three or 4 eldritch knight levels is equivalent to 1 level of wizard level when it comes to determining wizard spells known for that multiclass combo
(Reply to #17) Macv12	thewilderness wrote:
#20 blindhamster Feb 20, 2015 0:57:27	Bards have to use an instrument as an arcane focus. Bards are charisma based. Bards spell list is all about debuff. Not interested in inspiration. Those are the reasons I didn't make a bard. The trouble is (from my perspective). We have... Two charisma based arcane casters with decent melee capabilities (blade warlock and valor bard) One intelligence based (kinda) fighter that has decidedly 'Meh' arcane capabilities. The game needs an int based arcane caster that's more caster than fighter... something like a wizard with a tradition that gets it light armour prof and martial weapon prof, +1 hp a level, and has extra attack and battlemagic like valor bard (i guess with -something- else as it'd be missing an ability, probably something that gives it a damage increase like blade locks guess I suppose)
#21 Drunemeton Feb 20, 2015 1:06:16	Macv12 wrote:
#22 cowleymen Feb 20, 2015 1:27:18	Drunemeton wrote: