Ok...
If Elves gain the same benefit from a 4 hour trance that humans get from 8 hours of sleep does that mean that an elf only needs four hours for a long rest?
Yes, it actually specifies that on page 15 of basic:
"Trance. Elves don’t need to sleep. Instead, they
meditate deeply, remaining semiconscious, for 4
hours a day. (The Common word for such meditation
is “trance.”) While meditating, you can dream after a
fashion; such dreams are actually mental exercises that
have become reflexive through years of practice. After
resting in this way, you gain the same benefit that a
human does from 8 hours of sleep."
I'd have said a long rest still requires 8 hours. The long rest rule isn't explicitly tied to sleeping, like the trance ability is. I think an elf is still restricted to light activity during that 8 hours to get the benefit. The main advantage is that they can keep watch easily during that time.
Edit: to clarify the logic: A long rest is not equivalent to 8 hours sleep. You can take a long rest without sleeping, and you can sleep 8 hours without taking a long rest. So 4 hours of trance is not equivalent to a long rest.
It would be nice if there were rules about how much sleep you need though, it would fit in pretty well with the fatigue rules.
jaelis wrote:
Agreed; Elves can take a Long Rest in only four hours.
It's not overpowered or anything really; there is still the restriction that you can only benefit from Long Rest once in a 24-hour period.
While I am in the camp of "trance = 8 hours of sleep = long rest " it probably couldn't hurt to have someone tweet MM and see what he believes the intent of the rule to be.
I think the obv intent is in bold in Alienux's post. And I agree with Chimera that its not a problem given the 1/24 hr limit.
E-Tallitnics wrote:
Mostly, it's just that if I wanted to say elves only needed 4 hours for a long rest, I would have said so directly, rather than talking about the human sleep equivalent. But it's surely not going to break the game either way, people should probably play it as they think best.
E-Tallitnics wrote:
The only listed benefit I could find for sleeping is that it can qualify as a long rest. I may have missed other benefits though, and it could be those benefits that the trance gives I guess.
I still think someone should tweet Mike Mearls for the intent of the rule since it seems there are two ways to view it.
A Long Rest is "at least 8 hours". That is the RAW; even for a party of all elves. The elves would not have to spend any more than 4 hours in trance; but, they would have to spend the other 4 hours doing nothing more than "light activity".
Actually, if want to be a real stickler, the trance ability doesn't do anything at all. One of the benefits that a human gets from 8 hours of sleep is that 8 hours pass. If an elf gets all the benefits a human would, then 8 hours must pass for him too. So maybe the 4 hours is just subjective time... from an observer's perspective, 8 hours go by. So clearly there is no problem with taking a long rest 
*Maybe I should have enclosed that in <parody> tags, since I am not actually suggesting anyone should play it this way! But this does seem to follow the reasoning people are using, from what I can tell.
The basic rules are very clear in this case:
They state on page 15: ...you gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep.
So unless someone wants to argue that a human who has slept for 8 hours has not also rested for 8 hours the discussion is dispensable.
This is a typical case of specific beats general.
If a human sleeps for 8 hours, then they gain the benefits of a long rest.
If an elf trances for 4 hours, then they gain all the benefits that a human does from sleeping for 8 hours.
{x: x is a benefit of a long rest} ⊆ {x: x is a benefit that a human gains from sleeping for 8 hours}
∴ If an elf trances for 4 hours, then they gain the benefits of a long rest.
jaelis wrote:
Ah, so 8 hours only pass if it would be beneficial? Maybe if you need to wait 8 hours for poison gas to clear out of a dungeon, the elf could trance and it would be done?
(I feel have to keep repeating that the only reason I'm arguing about this is that I think the logic is weak. In practical terms, either way you play is fine and justifiable.)
Either way you interpret the rule, it's largely a moot point. Any Elf that is in a party with non-Elves is going to have to twiddle their thumbs waiting for the 8 hour sleepers to get off their butts anyways. Even if the party is Elf exclusive it's not going to make a huge difference. If the GM interprets the rule to mean that Elves only need 4 hours for a long rest, that means that the Elf party's work day is extened by at most 4 hours. This means they can get hit with at least one or 2 more encounters per day which can cause it's own problems if they don't manage their resources carefully.
In the end it's a difference that makes no real difference (at least regarding the extention of the party work day).
jaelis wrote:
Overpromises wrote:
DSZ wrote:
georgeu wrote:
Your premise 3 is ambiguous, from which I dispute step 4.
I argue that the benefit of a long rest is not a benefit of sleeping, but rather a benefit of resting for 8 hours. The fact that you are permitted to sleep during those 8 hours does not imply that the sleep itself provides the benefit of the rest.
To support this, I present a reduction to absurdity: As written, your argument would lead to the conclusion that any beneficial thing that could happen to a human during 8 hours of sleep could happen to and elf in 4 hours of trance. For instance:
Premises:
- It takes 8 hours for a poison gas to dissipate
- While waiting for a poison gas to dissipate, a character can sleep, perform light activity, or perform heavy activity.
- After 4 hours of trance, an elf gains the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep.
- A human getting 8 hours of sleep sleeps for at least 8 hours.
- A human is a character.
- After the poison gas dissipates, a character gains the benefit of being able to safely entering the cavern.
Proof:
- From premises 2 and 5: Sleep is allowed activity for a human while gas is dissipating.
- From step 1 and premise 4: A human getting 8 hours of sleep performs at least 8 hours of allowed activity while the gas is dissipating.
- From step 2 and premise 1: A human getting 8 hours of sleep allows the gas to dissipate.
- From step 3 and premise 6: A human getting 8 hours of sleep gains the benefit of being able to safely enter the cavern.
- From step 4 and premise 3: ∴ After 4 hours of trance, an elf gains the benefit of being able to safely enter the cavern.
jaelis wrote:
“Instead, they meditate deeply, remaining semiconscious, for 4 hours a day. (The Common word for such meditation is “trance.”)…After resting in this way, you gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep.”
Obviously, this is not a statement of mathematical logic and thus it is subject to ambiguity. I think that I and others have expressed what is ambiguous about it.
As for the poison gas proof, I suspect that a character does not “gain” the benefit of being able to safely enter the cavern. If they did, then I suspect your proof would be an actual proof that the elf would inexplicably be safe from the gas.
Basic page 67: “If the rest is interrupted by a period of strenuous activity—at least 1 hour of walking, fighting, casting spells, or similar adventuring activity—the characters must begin the rest again to gain any benefit from it. …A character can’t benefit from more than one long rest in a 24-hour period, and a character must have at least 1 hit point at the start of the rest to gain its benefits.”
It’s not as if I’m just making it up as I go along about gaining benefit from a long rest.
I don't dispute that characters benefit from a long rest. The question is, do they benefit from sleeping? If they do, why don't they benefit from poison gas dissipating?
Eight hours of rest is what a long rest is. Sleep is a form of rest. Eight hours of sleep is eight hours of rest.
The poison gas dissipating is not a direct result of resting. It happens whether you rest, do something, do nothing, or switch between the three for 8 hours. It might even happen faster if you used a spell or waved a big fan around.
The fact that you are rested is a direct result of resting. It cannot be achieved by other means (perhaps wish level spells, but that applies to anything). It does not happen if you do not rest. Edit: Had incorrectly stated that doing nothing was not rest.
If this is insufficient to convince you, then I doubt that I can come up with anything else.
Overpromises wrote:
Ah so are you saying then that it is "sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating" which is diffrent then the part "or standing watch for no more than 2 hours" Meaning you can just read the whole time as long as you only stand watch for a max of 2 hours. I read the sentance diffrently I read it as you "sleep" or "performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch" "for no more than 2 hours." The key to this reading is the colon after "light activity" that means that "reading, talking, eating, or standing watch" are all "light activity" and you can only do these light activities for a max of 2 hours (the rest of the time sleeping). Why do you think your reading of that sentance (in which it is standing watch that is limited to 2 hours and not the rest of the light activities) is more correct?
EDIT: Also I think the comma before the "or stand watch" clearly shows that the stand watch is a part of the light activies list and therefor the "for no more than 2 hours" applies to the whole list not just the stand watch part. And therefor the rest of the 6 hours would normally be sleeping (although only 4 hours is required for an elf).
obsid wrote:
What benefit does a human get from 8 hours of sleep? The benefit of a long rest — if he did not already took a long rest in the same 24 hour period, if he was not interrupted by a period of strenuous activity and if he did have 1 HP at the start of it.
While meditating for 4 hours, an elf gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep.
What benefit does a elf get from 4 hours of meditating? The benefit of a long rest — if he did not already took a long rest in the same 24 hour period, if he was not interrupted by a period of strenuous activity and if he did have 1 HP at the start of it.
Trance: Elves don’t need to sleep. Instead, they meditate deeply, remaining semiconscious, for 4 hours a day. While meditating, you can dream after a fashion; such dreams are actually mental exercises that have become reflexive through years of practice. After resting in this way, you gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep.
Long Rest: A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours. If the rest is interrupted by a period of strenuous activity—at least 1 hour of walking, fighting, casting spells, or similar adventuring activity— the characters must begin the rest again to gain any benefit from it. At the end of a long rest, a character regains all lost hit points. The character also regains spent Hit Dice, up to a number of dice equal to half of the character’s total number of them. For example, if a character has eight Hit Dice, he or she can regain four spent Hit Dice upon finishing a long rest. A character can’t benefit from more than one long rest in a 24-hour period, and a character must have at least 1 hit point at the start of the rest to gain its benefits.
There seem to be conflicting interpretations on this but i believe that's the most RAW interpretation IMO.
In the end, wether the elf meditate 4 hours, get the benefit of a long rest and then wait 4 more hours for the rest of the party to finish their long rest OR meditate 4 hours, wait 4 more hours for the rest of the party to finish their long rest and then get the benefit of a long rest it will essentially be the same anyway, so i personally wouldn't bother too much unless it becomes a problem, which then i would address.
Overpromises wrote:
Psikerlord wrote:
I think the bigger part of this issue is, does "standing watch for no more than two hours" mean two hours at a time, or two hours in toto? if it is the former, then a party of three can take a long rest as long as they have an elf in the party (who could stand watch for two hours, trance for four, and then stand watch for another two hours). If it is the later, then a party of three could never take a long rest, unless they were willing to risk spending time without someone standing watch (I suppose, if they could stay in an inn, with locked rooms, they might be safe). That seems a bit harsh.
Mearls also suggested that the PHB would have rules on sleep requirements. With them, the ability might make more sense.
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
MrHotter wrote:
Polaris wrote:
MrHotter wrote:
Once they put out the rules about sleeping, Trance will actually have an effect in theory. That's all I want. It's not that I care about the Trance feature in and of itself. It's more that it bothers me they would print something with no different effect from having to rest normally and call it a feature.
Lucas_Blackstone wrote:
Polaris wrote:
Archon007 wrote:
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
MrHotter wrote:
shivafang wrote:
shivafang wrote:
thewok wrote:
I still say this argument should be postponed until after the PHB (and maybe DMG?) comes out. If there are no rules about sleeping, I'll join whatever lynch mob people want to round up
Polaris wrote:
MrHotter wrote:
MrHotter wrote: