Familiar and Help Action - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 dwgautier Sep 27, 2014 12:41:01	I just posted about his in a combo thread... I'm 99% sure this works but just wanted to test it with the masses. Forgive me if it has already been discussed. After reading all the sections in the PHB on familiars and help action it seems that you can use your familiar to gain advantage on touch spells as long as your familiar is going before you do. Of course it is risky because at 1hp your familiar could go splat very easily... but still kinda a neat idea.
#2 Novacat Sep 27, 2014 13:02:54	Yes, that appears to work. As you said, it's risky for the Familiar, since it will die easily. However, a warlock with Pact of the Chain could have an invisible familiar doing this at significantly less risk.
#3 Timborama Sep 27, 2014 15:15:30	Also, Owls exist. This is why Owls are sorta the king of normal familiars. Fly-by Help action. Swoop in, use Help, fly away
#4 dwgautier Sep 27, 2014 15:46:04	Timborama wrote:
(Reply to #4) Nevvur	dwgautier wrote:
#6 2Chlorobutanal Sep 28, 2014 18:53:29	Yeah, the caster can Ready to cast (touch spell) when the familiar Helps. Owl familiar flies in, Helps, then flies out. However, there are a few downsides to this approach in that the caster must "concentrate" to Ready a spell. The caster can be interrupted via concentration saving throws between his or her turn and the owl familiar's turn, and it breaks concentration on previously cast ongoing spells. It does keep the familiar safe, however. So you have a choice between a safe(r) familiar, but broken concentration, or a vulnerabile familiar (parked near a creature), but the caster's concentration is unaffected.
#7 String7r Oct 04, 2014 17:04:30	There is nothing in the description of the Help (Aid) action that limits the Aid to a melee or Touch attack. It says, "...you can aid a friendly creature (your master) in attacking a creature within 5' of you. You... team up to make your ally's (Master's) attack more effective. If your ally attacks before the end of your next turn, the first attack is made with advantage." The Owl can fly to your target, execute the Aid action and fly to safety. When your Master's turn comes up, he attacks with advantage (assuming it's a ranged spell with an attack roll). Now, if you WANT to deliver a touch spell attack, then all the posts are correct with regard to timing and remaining in the 'danger zone'.
#8 DanH Oct 05, 2014 9:36:37	"you can aid a friendly creature (your master) in attacking a creature within 5' of you." If you flyby, the creature is not within 5' of you when the master attacks.
#9 Jay_Ibero_911 Oct 05, 2014 10:00:42	DanH wrote:
#10 Novacat Oct 05, 2014 10:26:13	Remember that, conceptually, all the actions in a round take place basically simultaneously. That means that, even if the familiar flies away after Helping, he can, in the narrative of the battle, distract the target for a brief moment just before his master attacks, creating the opening even if he isn't right there at the exact moment of impact.
#11 awogaman Oct 05, 2014 13:50:23	seems legit. Find Familiar says they get their own actions. It rolls its own initiative in combat. Which is also why flyby attack won't work. The idear is for it to move up, have the master pop the bad guy in the faaaaaaaaaaaaaace, and then flyby away. You can break up your movement before and after your action; but only on your turn. Once it's the next persons' turn, you can only take reactions (or Legendary Actions, what what) on another creatures' turn. Erego, the critter could fly up and do help action, but once the master takes their turn, the familiars' actions are over. woot. high five.
#12 Novacat Oct 05, 2014 13:59:04	awogaman wrote:
(Reply to #9) DanH	Jay_Ibero_911 wrote:
#14 Novacat Oct 05, 2014 15:34:06	DanH wrote:
#15 Draelyn Oct 06, 2014 10:03:32	To help you (as the character providing aid) must be within 5' of the creature you are distracting. (So you could provide help for a ranged attack as well as melee one.) In the Help section, I don't see a requirement for the character to be within 5' to receive the benefit of help, it's only a requirement to give help. As far as timing goes, there is nothing I could find in regards to needing to remain 5' from the enemy's space while your helped ally takes his action. The helped ally just needs to make the attack before the end of your next turn to gain the benefit of your help.
(Reply to #12) awogaman	Novacat wrote:
#17 Yunru Oct 06, 2014 14:26:22	That's because it's not a case of stating "the familiar doesn't have to stay adjacent." It's a case of not saying "the familiar must stay adjacent." From a RP perspective, picture an owl flying at someone's face and then flying away while the fighter takes advantage of the opening.
(Reply to #13) awogaman	DanH wrote:
#19 RedwoodElf Oct 06, 2014 15:48:29	Wouldn't the caster have to use his OWN action to direct his familiar to use the Help action? I know our DM is saying that our familiar cannot do ANYTHING unless the caster gives up their own action to let it do so.
#20 Novacat Oct 06, 2014 16:57:50	RedwoodElf wrote:
#21 RedwoodElf Oct 07, 2014 0:02:20	Novacat wrote:
#22 Novacat Oct 07, 2014 0:13:46	Immediately following the part where it says Familiars can't attack, it says they can take other actions as normal. That would include the Help action, which is the one in question in this thread.
#23 2Chlorobutanal Oct 07, 2014 0:30:10	A familiar can Help without any "action" input from its master. However, it's a rather expensive (potential feat slot, casting time + 10 gp per hit on the familiar) and unreliable (one hit/AoE on the familiar will likely remove it from the encounter) way to get advantage. It also requires a bit of planning to utilize a familiar that acts on a separate initiative count from the master. The target of Help may go down before the master has a chance to attack and utilize the help. Additionally, if the party contains a Wizard or a possibly a Warlock (or maybe even Bard), there is no reason why the spellcaster's familiar could not Help other party members to greater effect: give the advantage to a Rogue instead of to the master himself or herself. Many spellcasters may end up using saving-throw spells instead of attack spells anyway, so it would be fairly pointless for, say, a Wizard's familiar to Help the Wizard when he or she is casting a sleep spell. At this point, I see the concept of taking a feat to cast find familiar as similar to the role Leadership played in 3rd edition. Some tables or players may feel that "having a familiar" becomes compulsory because it gives each character 2 turns per round. I've DMed for players who took Leadership for this exact reason, even if the minion itself is fairly trivial. I'm inclined to avoid familiars for the sake of "Help", but if they fit the character concept, it wouldn't be a big deal. Of course, I generally only consider my Wizard or Warlock characters for familiars in the first place, but that's me.
(Reply to #18) Timborama	awogaman wrote:
#25 JohnnyBlaise Jul 07, 2015 15:27:59	Has anyone seen a good argument as to why or why not a familiar can Help with initiative rolls?
#26 mrpopstar Jul 07, 2015 15:37:45	JohnnyBlaise wrote:
(Reply to #26) Macv12	mrpopstar wrote:
#28 mrpopstar Jul 07, 2015 17:16:43	Macv12 wrote:
(Reply to #28) Macv12	mrpopstar wrote:
#30 mrpopstar Jul 07, 2015 18:10:38	Macv12 wrote:
#31 jaelis Jul 07, 2015 18:24:28	You're out of combat, so it's not a question of the Help action. So you'd use the Working Together rules Sometimes two or more characters team up to attempt a task. The character who’s leading the effort—or the one with the highest ability modifier—can make an ability check with advantage, reflecting the help provided by the other characters. In combat, this requires the Help action (see chapter 9). A character can only provide help if the task is one that he or she could attempt alone. For example, trying to open a lock requires proficiency with thieves’ tools, so a character who lacks that proficiency can’t help another character in that task. Moreover, a character can help only when two or more individuals working together would actually be productive. Some tasks, such as threading a needle, are no easier with help.
#32 mrpopstar Jul 07, 2015 18:40:10	jaelis wrote:
(Reply to #31) Macv12	jaelis wrote:
#34 JohnnyBlaise Jul 08, 2015 18:45:49	Obviously, familars can "help" outside of combat with things that are also Ability Checks, granting you advantage. For example, Wis(perception) to notice a trap. It's not an action economy issue. I think the question is really, is this the kind of thing that can ever benefit from assistance, or is it the kind of thing that can't. So, is it a lone person balancing on a beam (can't be helped) or a pair of people trying to help eachother over a wall (can be helped). To me, the answer is very unclear and lands in DM territory.
#35 Slagger_the_Chuul Jul 09, 2015 6:00:58	I would say no for initiative checks, since it lets you know how quickly you can begin acting, but it isn't an activity of its own.
#36 Psikerlord Jul 09, 2015 6:13:26	A familiar cant help you attack - p.175 PHB - you can only help with an action if you can perform that action yourself. Since a familiar cant attack, it cant help you attack, either. And good, coz otherwise it would be borderline OP, espeically with fly by owls.
#37 sim-h Jul 09, 2015 7:03:22	Psikerlord wrote:
(Reply to #36) ArialBlack	Psikerlord wrote:
#39 Psikerlord Jul 09, 2015 13:30:08	ArialBlack wrote:
#40 jaelis Jul 09, 2015 14:22:08	sim-h wrote:
#41 El_Condoro Jul 09, 2015 17:47:57	For the initiative advantage question, I would say that the familiar does not give advantage on the initiative roll but it would (probably) prevent the character (party) being surprised. With the Help action and 'flying away', there are 2 things to consider: A creature can only split its move on its turn. 'Breaking up your move' p. 190 PHB A creature must be within 5 ft. of the creature being attacked to give the ally attacker advantage on its roll. 'Help' p. 192 PHB Therefore, there are 2 possibilities: the familiar is ahead of the attacker in the initiative order, or after. Before: Familiar flies to target and within 5 ft. of the target the ally wishes to attack to provide Help. That's the end of the familiar's move and it cannot be split later. The attacker then has its turn with advantage. Other creatures may have their turn between 1. and 2. After: The attacker Readies his attack to occur when the familiar is within 5 ft. following all the Ready action conditions (1 action spell etc.) The familiar flies to the target to give Help. The attacker's readied attack is triggered. The familiar can fly away because it is still its turn. However, for the sake of simplicity and the narrative, I would simply allow the familiar to fly away after it provides Help - it's only the initiative order that makes the difference and it's too 'mechanical' to ruin the plot for.
#42 Yunru Jul 09, 2015 19:31:42	Nope. The target creature only has to be within 5ft when it takes the Help action.
#43 El_Condoro Jul 09, 2015 21:22:44	Yes, and it takes the Help action when it aids a friendly creature within 5 ft of you (the creature taking the Help action). If it moves away it is no longer within 5 ft. and cannot Help. I may not be clear on what you're saying. Are you saying a creature can take the Help action at point X, the target can move to point Y, which is more than 5ft. away, where another creature attacks it, and that creature gets advantage?
#44 mrpopstar Jul 09, 2015 21:49:14	El_Condoro wrote:
#45 Yunru Jul 10, 2015 2:45:23	Yes. Because that's what it does. And before you say "that doesn't make sense narratively", remember that everyone's turn takes place in the same 6 second rounds narratively.
#46 El_Condoro Jul 10, 2015 6:57:34	Sorry, it doesn't make sense (not that there is a lot in D&D that 'makes sense'). More important, I don't believe that's what the RAW is, but as I said, I'll allow the owl/bird/other flying critter fly away rather than have it splattered too easily. However, that is my ruling and if another DM went with the rules when my familiar was trying to Help, then I'd go with that, too.
(Reply to #46) mrpopstar	El_Condoro wrote:
#48 Drunemeton Jul 10, 2015 10:42:48	El_Condoro wrote:
#49 El_Condoro Jul 10, 2015 15:37:39	The extra comment by JC about provoking an OA by moving away is very interesting. Clearly helping and then moving away may be cause to provoke one, so the familiar better watch out - it's not a free "move to within 5 ft., use Help, disengage" - it's normal movement with the chance of an OA. @mrpopstar: There would be little point in using disengage unless the character was going to be within OA range during its move, but if a player said he wanted his character to disengage and move even though there were no chances for OAs, I'd let him of course. I see what you're saying and the correlation between disengage and help makes some sense then.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

dwgautier

Sep 27, 2014 12:41:01

I just posted about his in a combo thread... I'm 99% sure this works but just wanted to test it with the masses. Forgive me if it has already been discussed.

After reading all the sections in the PHB on familiars and help action it seems that you can use your familiar to gain advantage on touch spells as long as your familiar is going before you do. Of course it is risky because at 1hp your familiar could go splat very easily... but still kinda a neat idea.

Novacat

Sep 27, 2014 13:02:54

Yes, that appears to work. As you said, it's risky for the Familiar, since it will die easily. However, a warlock with Pact of the Chain could have an invisible familiar doing this at significantly less risk.

Timborama

Sep 27, 2014 15:15:30

Also, Owls exist. This is why Owls are sorta the king of normal familiars. Fly-by Help action. Swoop in, use Help, fly away

dwgautier

Sep 27, 2014 15:46:04

Timborama wrote:

(Reply to #4)

Nevvur

dwgautier wrote:

2Chlorobutanal

Sep 28, 2014 18:53:29

Yeah, the caster can Ready to cast (touch spell) when the familiar Helps. Owl familiar flies in, Helps, then flies out.

However, there are a few downsides to this approach in that the caster must "concentrate" to Ready a spell.

The caster can be interrupted via concentration saving throws between his or her turn and the owl familiar's turn, and it breaks concentration on previously cast ongoing spells. It does keep the familiar safe, however.

So you have a choice between a safe(r) familiar, but broken concentration, or a vulnerabile familiar (parked near a creature), but the caster's concentration is unaffected.

String7r

Oct 04, 2014 17:04:30

There is nothing in the description of the Help (Aid) action that limits the Aid to a melee or Touch attack. It says, "...you can aid a friendly creature (your master) in attacking a creature within 5' of you. You... team up to make your ally's (Master's) attack more effective. If your ally attacks before the end of your next turn, the first attack is made with advantage." The Owl can fly to your target, execute the Aid action and fly to safety. When your Master's turn comes up, he attacks with advantage (assuming it's a ranged spell with an attack roll).

Now, if you WANT to deliver a touch spell attack, then all the posts are correct with regard to timing and remaining in the 'danger zone'.

DanH

Oct 05, 2014 9:36:37

"you can aid a friendly creature (your master) in attacking a creature within 5' of you."

If you flyby, the creature is not within 5' of you when the master attacks.

Jay_Ibero_911

Oct 05, 2014 10:00:42

DanH wrote:

#10

Novacat

Oct 05, 2014 10:26:13

Remember that, conceptually, all the actions in a round take place basically simultaneously. That means that, even if the familiar flies away after Helping, he can, in the narrative of the battle, distract the target for a brief moment just before his master attacks, creating the opening even if he isn't right there at the exact moment of impact.

#11

awogaman

Oct 05, 2014 13:50:23

seems legit. Find Familiar says they get their own actions. It rolls its own initiative in combat. Which is also why flyby attack won't work.

The idear is for it to move up, have the master pop the bad guy in the faaaaaaaaaaaaaace, and then flyby away.

You can break up your movement before and after your action; but only on your turn. Once it's the next persons' turn, you can only take reactions (or Legendary Actions, what what) on another creatures' turn.

Erego, the critter could fly up and do help action, but once the master takes their turn, the familiars' actions are over.

woot. high five.

#12

Novacat

Oct 05, 2014 13:59:04

awogaman wrote:

(Reply to #9)

DanH

Jay_Ibero_911 wrote:

#14

Novacat

Oct 05, 2014 15:34:06

DanH wrote:

#15

Draelyn

Oct 06, 2014 10:03:32

To help you (as the character providing aid) must be within 5' of the creature you are distracting. (So you could provide help for a ranged attack as well as melee one.)

In the Help section, I don't see a requirement for the character to be within 5' to receive the benefit of help, it's only a requirement to give help.

As far as timing goes, there is nothing I could find in regards to needing to remain 5' from the enemy's space while your helped ally takes his action. The helped ally just needs to make the attack before the end of your next turn to gain the benefit of your help.

(Reply to #12)

awogaman

Novacat wrote:

#17

Yunru

Oct 06, 2014 14:26:22

That's because it's not a case of stating "the familiar doesn't have to stay adjacent." It's a case of not saying "the familiar must stay adjacent."

From a RP perspective, picture an owl flying at someone's face and then flying away while the fighter takes advantage of the opening.

(Reply to #13)

awogaman

DanH wrote:

#19

RedwoodElf

Oct 06, 2014 15:48:29

Wouldn't the caster have to use his OWN action to direct his familiar to use the Help action? I know our DM is saying that our familiar cannot do ANYTHING unless the caster gives up their own action to let it do so.

#20

Novacat

Oct 06, 2014 16:57:50

RedwoodElf wrote:

#21

RedwoodElf

Oct 07, 2014 0:02:20

Novacat wrote:

#22

Novacat

Oct 07, 2014 0:13:46

Immediately following the part where it says Familiars can't attack, it says they can take other actions as normal. That would include the Help action, which is the one in question in this thread.

#23

2Chlorobutanal

Oct 07, 2014 0:30:10

A familiar can Help without any "action" input from its master. However, it's a rather expensive (potential feat slot, casting time + 10 gp per hit on the familiar) and unreliable (one hit/AoE on the familiar will likely remove it from the encounter) way to get advantage. It also requires a bit of planning to utilize a familiar that acts on a separate initiative count from the master. The target of Help may go down before the master has a chance to attack and utilize the help.

Additionally, if the party contains a Wizard or a possibly a Warlock (or maybe even Bard), there is no reason why the spellcaster's familiar could not Help other party members to greater effect: give the advantage to a Rogue instead of to the master himself or herself. Many spellcasters may end up using saving-throw spells instead of attack spells anyway, so it would be fairly pointless for, say, a Wizard's familiar to Help the Wizard when he or she is casting a sleep spell.

At this point, I see the concept of taking a feat to cast find familiar as similar to the role Leadership played in 3rd edition. Some tables or players may feel that "having a familiar" becomes compulsory because it gives each character 2 turns per round. I've DMed for players who took Leadership for this exact reason, even if the minion itself is fairly trivial. I'm inclined to avoid familiars for the sake of "Help", but if they fit the character concept, it wouldn't be a big deal. Of course, I generally only consider my Wizard or Warlock characters for familiars in the first place, but that's me.

(Reply to #18)

Timborama

awogaman wrote:

#25

JohnnyBlaise

Jul 07, 2015 15:27:59

Has anyone seen a good argument as to why or why not a familiar can Help with initiative rolls?

#26

mrpopstar

Jul 07, 2015 15:37:45

JohnnyBlaise wrote:

(Reply to #26)

Macv12

mrpopstar wrote:

#28

mrpopstar

Jul 07, 2015 17:16:43

Macv12 wrote:

(Reply to #28)

Macv12

mrpopstar wrote:

#30

mrpopstar

Jul 07, 2015 18:10:38

Macv12 wrote:

#31

jaelis

Jul 07, 2015 18:24:28

You're out of combat, so it's not a question of the Help action. So you'd use the Working Together rules

Sometimes two or more characters team up to attempt a task. The character who’s leading the effort—or the one with the highest ability modifier—can make an ability check with advantage, reflecting the help provided by the other characters. In combat, this requires the Help action (see chapter 9).

A character can only provide help if the task is one that he or she could attempt alone. For example, trying to open a lock requires proficiency with thieves’ tools, so a character who lacks that proficiency can’t help another character in that task. Moreover, a character can help only when two or more individuals working together would actually be productive. Some tasks, such as threading a needle, are no easier with help.

#32

mrpopstar

Jul 07, 2015 18:40:10

jaelis wrote:

(Reply to #31)

Macv12

jaelis wrote:

#34

JohnnyBlaise

Jul 08, 2015 18:45:49

Obviously, familars can "help" outside of combat with things that are also Ability Checks, granting you advantage. For example, Wis(perception) to notice a trap. It's not an action economy issue. I think the question is really, is this the kind of thing that can ever benefit from assistance, or is it the kind of thing that can't. So, is it a lone person balancing on a beam (can't be helped) or a pair of people trying to help eachother over a wall (can be helped). To me, the answer is very unclear and lands in DM territory.

#35

Slagger_the_Chuul

Jul 09, 2015 6:00:58

I would say no for initiative checks, since it lets you know how quickly you can begin acting, but it isn't an activity of its own.

#36

Psikerlord

Jul 09, 2015 6:13:26

A familiar cant help you attack - p.175 PHB - you can only help with an action if you can perform that action yourself. Since a familiar cant attack, it cant help you attack, either.

And good, coz otherwise it would be borderline OP, espeically with fly by owls.

#37

sim-h

Jul 09, 2015 7:03:22

Psikerlord wrote:

(Reply to #36)

ArialBlack

Psikerlord wrote:

#39

Psikerlord

Jul 09, 2015 13:30:08

ArialBlack wrote:

#40

jaelis

Jul 09, 2015 14:22:08

sim-h wrote:

#41

El_Condoro

Jul 09, 2015 17:47:57

For the initiative advantage question, I would say that the familiar does not give advantage on the initiative roll but it would (probably) prevent the character (party) being surprised.

With the Help action and 'flying away', there are 2 things to consider:

A creature can only split its move on its turn. 'Breaking up your move' p. 190 PHB
A creature must be within 5 ft. of the creature being attacked to give the ally attacker advantage on its roll. 'Help' p. 192 PHB

Therefore, there are 2 possibilities: the familiar is ahead of the attacker in the initiative order, or after.

Before:

Familiar flies to target and within 5 ft. of the target the ally wishes to attack to provide Help. That's the end of the familiar's move and it cannot be split later.
The attacker then has its turn with advantage. Other creatures may have their turn between 1. and 2.

After:

The attacker Readies his attack to occur when the familiar is within 5 ft. following all the Ready action conditions (1 action spell etc.)
The familiar flies to the target to give Help.
The attacker's readied attack is triggered.
The familiar can fly away because it is still its turn.

However, for the sake of simplicity and the narrative, I would simply allow the familiar to fly away after it provides Help - it's only the initiative order that makes the difference and it's too 'mechanical' to ruin the plot for.

#42

Yunru

Jul 09, 2015 19:31:42

Nope. The target creature only has to be within 5ft when it takes the Help action.

#43

El_Condoro

Jul 09, 2015 21:22:44

Yes, and it takes the Help action when it aids a friendly creature within 5 ft of *you* (the creature taking the Help action). If it moves away it is no longer within 5 ft. and cannot Help.

I may not be clear on what you're saying. Are you saying a creature can take the Help action at point X, the target can move to point Y, which is more than 5ft. away, where another creature attacks it, and that creature gets advantage?

#44

mrpopstar

Jul 09, 2015 21:49:14

El_Condoro wrote:

#45

Yunru

Jul 10, 2015 2:45:23

Yes. Because that's what it does.

And before you say "that doesn't make sense narratively", remember that everyone's turn takes place in the same 6 second rounds narratively.

#46

El_Condoro

Jul 10, 2015 6:57:34

Sorry, it doesn't make sense (not that there is a lot in D&D that 'makes sense'). More important, I don't believe that's what the RAW is, but as I said, I'll allow the owl/bird/other flying critter fly away rather than have it splattered too easily. However, that is my ruling and if another DM went with the rules when my familiar was trying to Help, then I'd go with that, too.

(Reply to #46)

mrpopstar

El_Condoro wrote:

#48

Drunemeton

Jul 10, 2015 10:42:48

El_Condoro wrote:

#49

El_Condoro

Jul 10, 2015 15:37:39

The extra comment by JC about provoking an OA by moving away is very interesting. Clearly helping and then moving away may be cause to provoke one, so the familiar better watch out - it's not a free "move to within 5 ft., use Help, disengage" - it's normal movement with the chance of an OA.

@mrpopstar: There would be little point in using disengage unless the character was going to be within OA range during its move, but if a player said he wanted his character to disengage and move even though there were no chances for OAs, I'd let him of course. I see what you're saying and the correlation between disengage and help makes some sense then.