Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 texassnowman Feb 19, 2015 13:01:58	Hello all, long time lurker here, but decided to post because I was confused and was hoping for some clarification.   I've read most of the threads on invisibility, being hidden, stealth, etc but something that I don't recall seeing is Feral Senses. This is the 18th level Ranger ability and normally I wouldn't think much of it, but it states that   "you are aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn't hidden from you and you aren't blinded or deafened." p 92 PHB   In many of the threads and in the stealth/hiding guide, many have come to the conclusion that you know where an invisible enemy is unless they're hidden. Well, if that's the case, then why does an 18th level ability grant this as a class feature? I'm probably reading this wrong but how would allowing a character to know the exact location of an invisible person not totally nerf this class ability?    Also worth noting is that Feral Senses allows the PC to attack an invisible creature without disadvantage - a big help.   So what's the verdict? Does Feral Senses seem redundant or do we need to rethink how we are doing Stealth, or does it all work out (I'll need some help with understanding this).
#2 Noctaem Feb 19, 2015 13:40:55	Hi there, I wrote the guide for hiding and stealth (still ongoing I really need to get it done sigh).  What you've pointed out is interesting.  However the fact that it states "provided that the creature isn't hidden" should clear things up.  Hiding is the only ability in the entire game that allows you to cause other creatures to not to know where you are while you share an area of space.  You don't share an area of space with Bob the Builder 3 towns over so you can't know where he is.  However if he's in the room with you, or in the same field, or same area of forest, etc.. (all DM fiat) you should be able to know where he is using some of the senses the game uses (sight, smell, sound) or using one of your special senses (low-light, darkvision, tremorsense, etc).   If bob decides he wants to become hidden he must roll stealth to create a DC first opposed by passive perception when it becomes relevant and then if successful by an active check to find him should you decide to roll it.   What this feature does (and I plan on adding it to my guide so thanks for bringing it to my attention) is allow a character to know where an invisible creature is within 30 feet.  As far as I can tell that can mean around a corner out of sight, up a tree, in a hole, under water, underground, in a wall, in the next room, through a door, in the sky, etc..  The only limitations are that A) the creature must not be hidden from you and B) that you cannot be blinded or deafened and finally C) within 30 feet.  Other than that if it's within 30 feet of you, you know where it is regardless of circumstance.  You're right to say that it is redundant.  If you need to roll stealth to become hidden and gain the benefit "creatures don't know where you are" then if you're not hidden "creatures know where you are".  Invisibility does not say anywhere in the PHB that it grants the effect of "creatures don't know where you are" in fact it's the exact OPPOSITE.  They went to some lengths to MAKE SURE that invisibility did not mean hidden and they even specifically call out that an invisible creature is NOT hidden by default.  The only way to become hidden is to roll stealth opposed by passive perception which if successfull creates the DC that an active search check must beat.  There is no other way as per the PHB.   The other benefit, and imo the real butter here is the removal of disadvantage on attacks vs creatures you can't see.  Note that it doesn't say invisible, simply "can't see" which encompasses quite a few more scenarios.  Being blinded no longer gives disadvantage, darkness doesn't either and so on.   DM's are free to rule otherwise at their own tables of course.
#3 cowleymen Feb 19, 2015 22:24:39	invisibility does mean cant see, but not hidden. foot prints in sand/snow, or even your breath if its cold enough, can give a invisible creature away.    In the long run though, this is a high level ability that just doesnt have enough omph. Though I dont have problems with lower levels of play, I am hard press to see any reason to go beyond level 10, at max, as a ranger. Even if you argue for more spell levels, going arcane trickster or eldritch knight will get you spell slots, and bard can mess really well with this class as well.
(Reply to #2) texassnowman	Noctaem wrote:
#5 Noctaem Feb 20, 2015 7:19:22	texassnowman wrote:
#6 OoftaMeg Feb 20, 2015 7:20:56	Normally invisibility would allow you to hide even if hiding from creatures that could otherwise normally see you, right?  So an invisible creature can no longer hide from the ranger unless they could hide under normal circumstances.   In addition, I would probably rule (although this is just my ruling) that an invisible hidden creature could not remain hidden if they come out from behind cover, assuming the ranger is not otherwise distracted.  The creature with invisibility has no advantage from being invisible.
#7 Noctaem Feb 20, 2015 8:04:29	OoftaMeg wrote:
#8 Jenks Feb 20, 2015 8:07:18	Has this question been twittered?
(Reply to #7) OoftaMeg	Noctaem wrote: