Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 nesbit Jul 25, 2014 13:32:49	The text of the Fighter's Archery feature says it can be used with a "ranged weapon."   The weapon property 'thrown' says that a "melee weapon" with that property can be used to make a "ranged attack."    The only weapon classification that I can see is in the chart: Simple Melee, Simple Ranged, Martial Melee, Martial Ranged.    By strict interpretation, handaxes, light hammers, etc. cannot benefit from the Archery feature.      Further muddying the waters is text on pg. 43 of the online rules under 'Weapons' that says, "A melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet of you, whereas a ranged weapon is used to attack a target at a distance."      Questions:   1. What is your interpretation of this rule (as written)?   2. How will you actually implement it in your games?   3. What do you think the intended rule is?      Thanks for your help!
#2 Shiroiken Jul 25, 2014 14:05:41	Answering out of order, because #3 is needed to answer #2.   1) It should't work, because it would be very strong with dual wieldling Hand Axes.   3) It does work per Mike Mearls (who clarified in a tweet about Rogues using Thrown Hand Ax for Sneak Attack).   2) I'll just use it as is, unless it becomes way too strong, then I'll house rule it away.
#3 Overpromises Jul 25, 2014 15:57:16	nesbit wrote:
#4 mellored Jul 25, 2014 18:19:43	Shiroiken wrote:
(Reply to #4) 2Chlorobutanal	mellored wrote:
#6 mellored Jul 27, 2014 18:28:25	2Chlorobutanal wrote:
(Reply to #6) 2Chlorobutanal	mellored wrote:
#8 mellored Jul 28, 2014 5:42:02	2Chlorobutanal wrote:
#9 Lord_Kyrion Jul 28, 2014 7:59:49	It's also not that powerful because even if you throw two axes in your turn, you are now empty handed. Maybe you have a sack full of axes, but you can't draw two weapons in a turn without using an action.
#10 Psikerlord Jul 28, 2014 19:09:20	Is this thread seriously about taking the archer trait to melee with handaxes at +2 hit on each melee strike? Ah, no.   It's only a ranged weapon when you throw the axe, otherwise it's a melee weapon. The archer trait gives you +2 hit when you throw them, not when you melee attack with them. That's the very clear and obvious intent of a trait called "archer".
(Reply to #10) 2Chlorobutanal	Psikerlord wrote:
(Reply to #11) Tichrimo	2Chlorobutanal wrote:
#13 Psikerlord Jul 29, 2014 15:30:38	On reflection the archer ability clearly only applies to ranged weapons, the lists for which appear in the weapons lists, stuff like bows and crossbows, doesnt apply to throwing weapons at all. Sorry miread the OP.
#14 nesbit Jul 29, 2014 16:03:11	Psikerlord wrote:
(Reply to #14) obsid	nesbit wrote:
#16 Psikerlord Jul 29, 2014 18:35:00	nesbit wrote:
#17 Psikerlord Jul 29, 2014 18:36:22	obsid wrote:
#18 nesbit Jul 29, 2014 22:37:03	obsid wrote:
#19 mellored Jul 30, 2014 5:26:27	Psikerlord wrote:
(Reply to #19) nesbit	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #20) obsid	nesbit wrote:
#22 nesbit Jul 31, 2014 17:02:06	obsid wrote:
#23 joe.bonar Jul 31, 2014 22:27:08	The description of attacks with ranged weapons on page 9 includes, specifically, handaxes, as an example of thrown weapons, so while the rules don't specifically state matter-of-factly, in it's own little entry entitled "Thrown Weapons are Ranged Weapons As Well As Melee Weapons" that weapons with the thrown property are ranged weapons as well as melee weapons, they are, RAW, ranged weapons. Further, the definition of ranged, with context placing it directly in the realm of weapon set description, according to page 45/6 includes thrown weapons within it, so if one were to construct sets of the weapons, thrown weapons, according to the examples on pages 9, 45/6, would be included in the melee weapon set as well as the ranged weapon set. The wording of the feature was poor enough to allow the bonus whenever one attacks with a weapon that is in the ranged set of weapons (including thrown weapons), regardless of the type of attack being made.   I don't think most players are going to read this and immediately jump to the conclusion that picking up some thrown weapons would grant them to hit with melee attacks, but then again this discussion is on the internet. I personally hope it is errata'd to specify when making ranged attacks (rather than requiring a specific weapon category) because any additional craziness that could occur is unlikely to be particularly abusive, or require feat support and many levels (e.g. throwing mauls about because you picked up a feat that allows you to throw any weapon, and the reason I don't think throwing mauls about is realistic is because you basically have to have an impossible strength score due to encumberance, but you're capped at 20, or expensive magical returning maul(s), attacking with a better bonus on a single cantrip does not, to me, seem abusive, oh noes, you have a better chance to hit with one spell that you can attack with once per round, so high elf fighter doesn't seem too powerful to me, especially considering it's one damage type that can be planned around in important encounters) of investment to really cheese (pick up great weapon fighter as well, assuming you take chamption archtype, or take GWF then Archery, whatevs). Then again maybe it would be better to stick with the rule as-is because if this is the cheese you get from it then it's really not all that cheesey.   I personally wouldn't try it on any DMs (nor SA with GS, just as an aside), but I have to agree with others that, RAW, all it requires is to attack with a ranged weapon, and, according to pg. 9 and 45/6, ranged weapons include melee primary weapons that can be thrown as well, so all signs point to yes you can handaxe-archery cheese melee attacks for meh bonuses. If you're in a low level game and you're just trying to squeeze out the bonuses for some good ol' theorycraft style arena PvP, then it's definitely a consideration, but I don't think you'll be well served trying to make a competetive build relying on this tactic (until there are more options of course) for group play. Is it obviously in violation of RAI? Absolutely. Is it in violation of RAW? Not at all.   What about "When taking the attack action, and making a ranged attack, you gain a +2 bonus to hit." Taking the attack action precludes spellcasting IIRC, the ranged attack negates making melee attacks with it, and the bonus is as intended.   Edit: Just throwing this out there, the thrown property, in 5E at least, qualifies it for inclusion in the ranged category, as opposed to being in it's own nebulous other category of melee weapons that can be used to make ranged attacks.   Also, I wonder if a feat allowing you to throw any weapon would grant, for you, the thrown property on all weapons, or if you would make attacks as though the weapon had the thrown property for the purposes of determining the range of the attack.
#24 Jbickley00 Jul 31, 2014 22:20:16	If I'm rules lawyering, ranged weapons means weapons on the ranged weapons table. Thrown melee weapons might make a ranged attack, but they are not listed on the ranged weapons table.  If I'm being gracious, the archery style could encompass ranged attacks with melee weapons, and they would get the bonus. under no circumstances would the archery style ever lend its bonus yo a melee attack.
#25 joe.bonar Jul 31, 2014 22:51:58	DnD Basic, page 9: "For attacks with ranged weapons, use your Dexterity modifier for attack and damage rolls. A weapon that has the thrown property, such as a handaxe, can use your Strength modifier instead." (emphasis not mine)   The thrown property qualifies the weapon as a ranged weapon.
#26 Daxarth Aug 01, 2014 18:45:42	Just throwing in my 2 cents. Anything that we read into the rules that is not explicitly stated in the rules is an interpretation/judgement call. To clarify, If something seems implied, or seems like it is the only logical conclusion of a given statement and but it is not explicitly stated, then its an interpretation/judgement call.   Going on a strictly RAW basis. The basic rules document does not explicitly state that melee weapons with the thrown property are ranged weapons. in fact on page 44 of the basic rules, it states "Every weapon is classified as either melee or ranged." which is explicitly stating that a weapon cannot be both melee and ranged but must be one or the other. The thrown weapon property states "If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack." it explicitly says it can make a ranged attack, it does not say it makes it a ranged weapon, that would be an interpretation.   Going on a perceived RAI basis. the thrown weapon property seems to exist for the purpose of designating certain weapons as ranged weapons even if they are not on the list of ranged weapons. I have not read Mike Mearls tweet so I am going off what I have read in this thread, but if MM indicated that throwing a hand axe allows for sneak attack, then a weapon with the thrown property would (by interpretation) be a ranged weapon since the handaxe lacks the finesse weapon property.   Gong on a metagaming basis. If we take that "Every weapon is classified as either melee or ranged." and that melee weapons with the thrown weapon property can also be ranged weapons then I could see that a weapon could be both a melee weapon and a ranged weapon but under different circumstances.  Are you attacking the goblin adjacent to you with your hand axe? then its a melee weapon. Are you throwing your hand axe at the fleeing goblin? then its ranged weapon.
#27 Jbickley00 Aug 01, 2014 21:24:27	joe.bonar wrote:
(Reply to #26) obsid	Daxarth wrote:
(Reply to #28) Daxarth	obsid wrote:
#30 Polaris Aug 03, 2014 22:52:00	obsid wrote:
#31 kanageddaamen Aug 04, 2014 6:03:39	I would allow my players to use it with any ranged attack that uses a weapon.  I would not let them use it on melee attacks ever.
#32 Plaguescarred1 Aug 04, 2014 6:18:25	Its clear RAW that  ranged weapon is a weapon category seperate from properties and thus (thrown) weapons are either ranged or melee. Archery Fighting Style only apply to attack rolls made with ranged weapons (with or without the thrown property). Melee weapon with the thrown property don't qualify. So currently the only thrown weapon the Archery Fighting Style can work with is the dart.     BR44 Weapons: Every weapon is classified as either melee or ranged.
#33 Plaguescarred1 Aug 04, 2014 6:23:27	Also, Archery Fighting Style can apply to melee attacks made with a ranged weapon : )     FYI The 3E/4E rules specifically mentioned that thrown weapons counts as a ranged weapon when thrown, which 5E rules don't say, and i expect some people to assume it does based on their understanding of previous edition rules.      3E PHB113 Weapon Categories: Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.   4E PHB215 Weapon Categories:  A melee weapon with the heavy thrown or the light thrown property counts as a ranged weapon when thrown
#34 Psikerlord Aug 04, 2014 18:05:54	Archery fighting style should have read something like "+2 to hit with ranged attacks using weapons but not spells". Something like that. Or hell they could have allowed it to work with spells, why would it matter really? Might help the eldritch knight out a bit.
#35 Polaris Aug 04, 2014 18:48:43	Psikerlord wrote:
#36 nesbit Aug 05, 2014 16:22:34	Plaguescarred wrote:
#37 joe.bonar Aug 07, 2014 5:00:35	"The "or" operator differs from the exclusive or in that the latter returns false when both of its inputs are true, while "or" returns true. In ordinary language, outside of contexts such as formal logic, mathematics and programming, "or" sometimes has the meaning of "exclusive or". For example, "Please ring me or send an email" likely means "do one or the other, but not both". On the other hand, "Her grades are so good that she's either very bright or studies hard" allows for the possibility that the person is both bright and works hard. In other words, in ordinary language "or" can mean inclusive or exclusive or. Usually the intended meaning is clear from the context." I happen to think that it is the inclusive version of or given the context of the handaxe specifically being cited in the ranged weapon description early in the book. If you dont like it, run it differently i dont care, but i think raw is perfectly clear that thrown is a property that qualifies the weapon as a ranged weapon as well as it being a melee weapon. The only reason this appears to be an issue is the poor wording of some class features, rather than the actual definition of a ranged weapon, which appears to simply be a weapon that can be used to make ranged attacks, which i find to be both functional and specific.
#38 Undrhil Aug 07, 2014 6:07:35	Honestly, this is what is going to turn new players away from the game.  If the rules are this ambiguous, how are new players ever going to understand the rules?  Not to mention that you are going to have "powergamers" clamoring at the bit to get their extra +2 from using a handaxe and the DM is going to use Common Sense(tm) and tell them "No".  Then, the powergamer/munchkin is going to get upset.   Plague, I usually value what you bring to the table, but bringing up what previous editions have to say does not help since this is *not* those previous editions.  Sure, it might show how the developers felt about the subject previously, but that doesn't mean it holds up today.  Also, if you really want to bring those into it, the fact that they spelled it out so plainly before and didn't do so this time would indicate that the developers do *not* want thrown weapons to count as ranged weapons, since they didn't bother to put it into the rules this time.
#39 Plaguescarred1 Aug 07, 2014 8:11:29	Undrhil wrote:
#40 durntaur Aug 07, 2014 12:07:13	kanageddaamen wrote: