Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 TheLastDunedain Sep 22, 2014 11:19:42	The paladin's "Find Steed" spell specifies that the summoned mount is "unusually intelligent" and increases the minimum intelligence score to 6. The mount rules explain a distinction between controlled mounts, and intelligent independent mounts (I.e. dragons). A controlled mount shares your actions on your turn. An independent mount has it's own initiative and acts on it's own accord. (Presumably controlled by the DM?) Which category do the paladin mounts fall under? Secondly, since the paladin and his/her mount share a special bond and can communicate telepathically, if a paladin's mount was deemed independent (whether because all are, or because the DM allows the warhorse to be replaced by a dragon at high levels) could a paladin tell their mount what to do instead of the DM? So, there are a couple RAW and RAI components here. Does the intelligent mount rule imply sentience, or just intelligence? What's the benchmark intelligence score to qualify? Who controls an intelligent mount? Does the answer to the previous question change if it's a paladin's special mount? Are these rules intended to make a paladin's mount function similarly to a ranger's animal companion? I like the idea of a paladin's mount coming to his/her aid in a time of need, and the two functioning differently in combat than your standard barbarian on a mule, but I do have concerns about game balance. Thoughts?
#2 TheLastDunedain Sep 22, 2014 11:29:56	Sorry for "wall of text" Posting from phone seems to mess with formatting
#3 Novacat Sep 22, 2014 12:15:21	All mounts are sentient, but a paladin's mount is sapient. It controls itself, though it's probably willing to follow your commands.
#4 FluffyBunbunKittens Sep 22, 2014 13:39:01	Find Steed is what Ranger animal companion wishes it was.   Enjoy the free actions.
#5 BW0222 Sep 22, 2014 14:22:28	TheLastDunedain wrote:
#6 1eejit Sep 23, 2014 3:58:19	You appear to be conflating *animals* with *beasts*, BW. The spell can definitely summon a dragon steed if the DM is ok with that.
#7 Strill Sep 23, 2014 5:25:43	FluffyBunbunKittens wrote:
#8 Timborama Sep 23, 2014 5:44:43	TheLastDunedain wrote:
#9 FluffyBunbunKittens Sep 23, 2014 8:35:20	Strill wrote:
(Reply to #9) TheLastDunedain	Not til lvl 5 anyway. While no flying mounts are listed as suggestions, nothing says a DM cant/won't allow a flying mount. Especially if the beast master in your party has been rocking one for two levels
#11 RCanine Sep 23, 2014 13:19:38	Find steed is one of the worst-written spells in the game because it heavily relies on DM fiat.   I've posted some suggested errata in the past (search for find steed suggested errata), but remember that unlike the beast master, your summoned warhorse is going to remain CR 1/2 even at level 20. I'm not sure it's really going to work as a combat mount.
#12 Lipfi Sep 23, 2014 14:57:52	Flying steed would be very OP. Compare it to Fly spell. Fly is 3rd level spell and takes concentration and cant attack, move faster... Read mounted combat.You can either control or allow mount to be independent and thus able to attack. You can't have both.
#13 Danny_Montanny Sep 23, 2014 16:16:22	The mount is absolutely sentient. It has the wisdom to perceive as well as the intelligence to reason. It knows exactly what it is. It knows that if it dies, it will just come back in the same form and pick up where it left off. This will make the mount totally fearless in the face of danger, and when protecting it's bonded.   I plan on running it like this. The player will retain control of the mount, but the mount will have it's own place in in initiative. That way the player can command it as they see fit, but will have to do so strategically. The mount after you in the order? Looks like you'll have to ready an action till you get into range with your melee weapon unless you want to used a range attack. Your warhorse just trampled the only enemy in range on it's turn, and now you can't move and have no one to attack now that it's yours?  See options above, or have it ready it's action to move on your turns.
(Reply to #13) Lipfi	Danny_Montanny wrote:
#15 Novacat Sep 23, 2014 16:44:12	Danny_Montanny wrote:
#16 TheLastDunedain Sep 23, 2014 18:12:44	That's the other interesting note: it lists some examples of CR 1/2 mounts, but does not mention challenge rating as a regulator for mount selection. It leaves the available mounts entirely up to the DM. Which, paired with a new game balance thanks to bounded accuracy, and different pace of combat, makes it hard for even experienced DM's to pick appropriate mounts. This spell has so much leeway -- it could easily be extremely OP or pretty much worthless depending on lvl, available mounts, interpretation of mounted combat rules, etc. How well would a rule like this work? Max CR of Mount is 1/10 character lvl (round up?) Even at lvl 20, max CR of Mount would be 2. Or max CR of Mount is 5 CR's below your character level? Character lvl 5: max CR 1/2 Character lvl 10: max CR 5 Character lvl 20: max CR 15
(Reply to #16) Lipfi	TheLastDunedain wrote:
#18 RCanine Sep 23, 2014 20:03:27	TheLastDunedain wrote:
#19 Strill Sep 24, 2014 6:18:16	RCanine wrote:
#20 zagora_01 Sep 24, 2014 8:26:22	Strill wrote:
(Reply to #20) Lipfi	zagora_01 wrote:
#22 Timborama Sep 24, 2014 10:21:57	Yeah, if they make a Cavalier subclass to Paladin, then it could easily be a class feature that scales. But for now, you get a horse. A very SPECIAL horse that is really cool. But still a CR 1/2 horse because you only used a single spell slot...   which you can recast...
#23 LongTimeLurker Sep 24, 2014 14:24:35	zagora_01 wrote:
#24 RCanine Sep 24, 2014 18:36:14	Lipfi wrote:
#25 Strill Sep 24, 2014 21:16:42	RCanine wrote:
#26 RCanine Sep 24, 2014 22:31:11	Strill wrote:
#27 FluffyBunbunKittens Sep 25, 2014 0:57:49	RCanine wrote:
#28 RCanine Sep 25, 2014 3:31:17	FluffyBunbunKittens wrote:
#29 FluffyBunbunKittens Sep 25, 2014 3:33:30	RCanine wrote:
#30 RCanine Sep 25, 2014 3:57:48	FluffyBunbunKittens wrote:
#31 TheLastDunedain Sep 25, 2014 4:21:42	I think something people are forgetting is that there are many situations in which you cannot feasibly ride a mount. Narrow passages and low ceilings in a dungeon. Oceanic travel. (Sorry buddy, your triceratops doesn't fit on the boat) Narrow alleys, crowded market places, and royal courts in large cities. The idea that you can summon it once and be done isn't only limited by the creatures HP, but also by adventure design. Secondly, there are many challenges a party might face in where a mount does not help at all, and may even be a hindrance. Mounts can certainly be powerful tools in combat, but there's a whole lot more to the game than that.
#32 Timborama Sep 25, 2014 5:37:07	TheLastDunedain wrote:
#33 PetardoMauriti Sep 25, 2014 5:37:55	I wonder, if possible to make a barding for this summoned horse (mount), so it has better armor and how it works?
#34 FluffyBunbunKittens Sep 25, 2014 7:01:06	PetardoMauriti wrote:
#35 RCanine Sep 25, 2014 9:03:29	FluffyBunbunKittens wrote:
#36 MoonKiller Sep 26, 2014 10:09:35	I personally like the following guidelines and use in my campaigns   Find Steed Level 2 Spell   Level 2 spell:  CR 1/2 mount Level 3 spell: CR 1 mount Level 4 Spell: CR 2 mount Level 5 Spell: CR 3 mount (I feel this is more of a gift from the gods ie a Unicorn - which could make good roleplaying in order to get one)   Cannot cast higher than level 5, ALSO i would scale it based on "Paladin Levels" and not a MC Paladin/Sorcerer (They get higher level spells quicker)   I might give a paladin a Pegasus based on their Good aligned roleplaying as a level 3 spell (normally a lev 4 spell as above)   Personally i will allow a paladin to Don Full plate (Costs x4 and weighs x2) on a mount with a -10 speed penalty and as the Paladin gains Levels with that specific mount (IE Warhorse) id take the penalty away. if the Paladin gains a Pegasus Id use the -10 pen again till the paladin gains more levels once again. As for if the steed disappears i would probably leave the armour behind   I dont see the above as game breaking as it is circumstantial (IE cannot really have a mount in a dungeon or cave depending on the size)   I would also allow them to attack if not mounted, but chances are they will drop at higher levels (depending on mount) so wont be used unless very necessary. Also i dont see anyone using a Steed (being semi intelligent) as a meat shield considering that there is a bond which i feel should be respected.     As a DM if the PC abuses the basic trait of a mount there are various ways of fixing that - I mean you are the DM after all   As for permanent mounts: ie Warhorse, Pegasus… we actually have a Lev 12 evoc wizard with a pegasus. The pegasus is very humanlike (and cheeky) and expects to be treated as a human. Costs 1 GP per week to “maintain”, as he only eats “The best” cooked meat and vegetables that a human eats. This was a gift in my campaign, BUT STILL had to role a persuasion check at the end adventure to see if she keeps it or not (Advantage or disadvantage depending how the Pegasus was treated and if there was a bond made. I say persuation check as it can understand languages (Animal Handling for animals that cannot understand or speak any languages)   One also has to note that an intelligent mount is controlled by the DM as its an intelligent NPC, which will follow instructions but the DM can take control whenever, so again I don’t see this as game breaking
#37 Veleria Sep 26, 2014 13:08:56	*edited I completely misread the spell.
#38 RCanine Sep 26, 2014 12:47:46	Veleria wrote: