Hi All....
So, I'm a bit confused about some of this. I get Passive Perception: it lets you find things without trying. You give yourself a 10 and add your bonus. It's used for detecting ambushes and such. What about traps, though? A pit trap? Will it detect it? I also assume secret doors will be detected, but is that right?
What do you use as a rogue with a treasure chest? Do you have to have proficency Lock Picks? Or can anyone find one? You use Investigation? Is that right?
I'm trying to figure out as I'm running a new game for some new players. The Cleric has great Wisdom and Perception scores. I'm just trying to figure out what he can detect. The Rogue has average Int and terrible Wisdon. I'm trying to figure out how screrwed they are when it comes to traps and such.
Passive Perception will allow characters to detect the presence of traps and secret doors if they are in the position to notice them. You can set the DC per instance of trap or secret door. Once a trap or secret door is noticed, then a player might seek to figure out how they work. If their approach to doing so has an uncertain outcome, the DM can ask for an Intelligence (Investigation) check.
A rogue with a treasure chest can make a Dexterity (Thieves' Tools) check if the DM determines there is uncertainty as to the outcome of unlocking a chest. For anyone who doesn't have the tool proficiency, it is just a Dexterity check.
There are two key things to adjudication here:
1. The DM must be clear on the player's goal and approach. Once that is clear, the DM must decide whether the action succeeds, fails, or has an uncertain outcome and thus deserves an ability check to determine the result. Not every action is a check, just the ones that have an uncertain outcome. You have to decide that.
2. Telegraphing traps and secret doors with clues allow the players to make meaningful deductions and decisions as to what's in the area and how to deal with it. So consider including some element in your area description that signifies the presence of these things. If you're relying solely on Passive Perception versus DCs to determine what happens, you're pushing the meaningful decisions back to character creation rather than actual game play.
Lashan wrote:
OK....this does help a lot. Thanks!
So, the cleric of the party has a passive Perception save of 18. That's going to save the party quite a bit. First time player rolled an 18 on his ability score and put it towards Wisdom (with the +1 for being human, too). He then worships St. Cuthbert, who is a Knowledge god for some reason. That means he gets to pick 2 skills to be double good at (like a rogue) and picked Perception as one. So, he doubles his Proficency bonus.
The first time player Rogue did manage to roll a 7 for one score, but the rest are high. He's bounced around which score to put it in, but settled with Wisdom making sense for him and a life of crime. This makes finding traps quite terrible for him! It looks like the Cleric will have to give everything the once over to find stuff.
Alright....I don't see many traps or secret doors getting past the party at this point, but they might need a new rogue at some point. 
I like the suggestion for the Investigation test for traps.
Any trap or secret door with a DC greater than 18 could get past the party. The thing that makes this an actual interaction as opposed to comparing two static numbers to get a result is to describe the environment well and in a way that invites exploration (one of the three pillars of adventuring). If you include some kind of clue that there is a trap or secret door in the area (here is an example), then players can check out those clues and make decisions about what they mean and what to do. They might then discover the trap or secret door with certainty (and thus no roll). If they ignore the clues and set off the trap or pass right by the secret door, then at least they know it wasn't a total "gotcha" - they just failed to explore and figure things out.
Remember, as DM you have to decide the results of the PCs' actions. Sometimes that calls for a check, but oftentimes it doesn't.
iserith wrote:
Lashan wrote:
Ahhh.....roger on that! Much Thanks!
Also, note that picking a lock and disabling a trap are just basic Dexterity checks, anyone (with or without prificiency in Thieves' Tools) can attemp the check. The tools simply let you add your proficiency bonus to the check. That is of course assuming normal mechanical traps and locks. Feel free to use any check, or combination of skill an ability, you feel is appropriate for the situation.
Ooooooohhhh! I didn't know that! Thanks for the info.
Actually, you cannot open a lock without a proficiency in theives tools according to the PHB.
pedro2112 wrote:
pedro2112 wrote:
He did write "according to the PHB" so I'm not sure why you even felt the need to post a comment that had nothing to do with what you quoted. For what it's worth, the DMG says the same thing about needing proficiency to open a lock.
DMG103: Locked Doors. Characters who don't have a key to a locked door can pick the lock with a successful Dexterity check (doing so requires thieves' tooks and proficiency in their use).
guachi wrote:
Iserith, the PHB states that locks can only be picked by characters proficient with theives tools. I was answering the question based on the rules of the game. You can certainly ignore any of the rules if it makes a better game experience for you and your players (I do that, too). However, the previous posters where making an assumption that the RAW was that anyone can attempt to open a lock with an appropriate check.
It is useful to see how passive perception is used in the Starter Set adventure module. In the Redbrand hideout, for example, we have this:
Spotting a secret door from a distance of no more than 10 feet without actively searching for it requires a passive Wisdom (Perception) score of 15 or higher, whereas a character who takes the time to search the wall can find the secret door with a successful DC 10 Wisdom (Perception) check.
pedro2112 wrote:
iserith wrote:
paulstrait wrote:
iserith wrote:
I have also heard it referred to as a 'permissive ruleset' vs a 'restrictive ruleset' (normally in Warhammer 40K discussions)
In most games (40K, MtG, etc) the rules are Permissive, meaning you can't do anything, and the rules give you permission to do specific things.
In most RPGs, you can do (attempt) everything, and the rules Restrict what you can't do, or how you can go about it
I also find that many rules problems exist because people subconsciously insert the words "always" or "only" into a rule.
"You can pick a lock with tools" is not the same as "You can only pick a lock with tools", nor the same as "You can always pick a lock with tools".
Coredump00 wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
I do agree with you generally, Iserith, but on this one it is fairly clear that reading all the rules in the PHB and the DMG, one needs to be proficient with theives tools to pick a lock. However, as a DM, I would probably allow a PC to do so without one under certain circumstances.
pedro2112 wrote:
El_Condoro wrote:
El_Condoro wrote:
Greenstone.Walker wrote:
Orethalion wrote: