Hello,
While toying with character options I've noticed that spear is not a reach weapon:
Spear: 1d6 piercing, 3 lb., Thrown (range 20/60), versatile (1d8)
Now while I can understand the context, and the power of reach weapon feature, it still sounds kind of strange for a spear, one of the oldest, most common weapon known to humanity, to be stripped of it's basic and most obvious advantage.
Basic tactics and builds like a hardened warrior wielding a spear and shield (300 anyone...?) are made pointless.
All other reach weapons are high damage, two handed weapons. We got halberds, pikes and glaives. There is no one handed reach weapon for a basic phalanx tactic.
I needed to fix this.
I propose to add a longspear. A martial weapon with reach, worthy of a skilled warrior. A bit longer, a bit heavier, a bit more difficult to throw:
Longspear: 1d6 piercing, 4 lb, Thrown (range 10/30), versatile (1d8), reach
Why not 1d8? For not making a sword or battleaxe an obsolete, inferior weapon.
What do you think?
With that setup, I don't see a huge issue. I was going to say to make it martial, but you beat me to it.
Just out of curiosity (and the desire to see this fully thought out...), how did you land on the long spear being a one-handed weapon? It's the only problem I see with what you've suggested..
In most other games, the long spear has given the wielder the advantage of reach, but it's also always a two handed weapon. Having wielded a spear before (granted, a foam and rattan spear), anything which is going to let you hit a target from 5 feet away is going to require two hands to control. (Or someone with a very high Strength, but adding Str requirements for weapons seems a bit cumbersome and probably not what you're going for).
Wouldn't it be simpler to either
(a) house rule that a spear also gives reach when wielded two-handed? i.e. Versatile (d8, reach)
(b) reflavor the glaive or halberd into a long spear (two handed) that does piercing damage instead of slashing damage?
I realize that the second choice isn't quite what you were going for, but it does give the spear the love it needs.
You can just add reach to the regular spear, it should be noticeably better than a quarterstaff but as it is, it really isn't.
Effectively using a regular spear one handed is suspect enough; making it even longer (Reach) and still controlling it one handed....
The spears in 300 did not have reach.
Coredump00 wrote:
"In the 7th century BC, the Greeks evolved a new close-order infantry formation, the phalanx.[9] The key to this formation was the hoplite, who was equipped with a large, circular, bronze-faced shield (hoplon) and a 7–9 ft. (2–2.75 m) spear with an iron head and bronze butt-spike (doru).[10] The hoplite phalanx dominated warfare among the Greek City States from the 7th into the 4th century BC."
9 ft. spear plus thrust and leg movement? Sounds pretty reaching to me. ;)
Even putting "realism" aside, I really wanted to make options such as below interesting and actually fun in my games:
FFSAA wrote:
I would at least give it the heavy property.
If simple, I'd give this hypothetical longspear reach, with a special clause attached to it. This special property would cause disadvantage on attacks with the weapon when only withing 5ft of the target.
Proudworks wrote:
Sword_of_Spirit wrote:
CariadocThorne wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
Thanks for this interesting conversation. I think I will leave the spear as it is but it was very interesting reading why some felt it needed to be changed.
I think spear is fine, as-is. It's trident that is disappointing.
Coredump00 wrote:
There should be a distinction between a short spear or throwing spear (javelin) and a long spear or boar spear one would use in a shield wall. Make the short spear one handed thrown and make the long spear two handed reach.
Moonshadow50 wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
In addition to what others have said, not every permutation of every weapon is represented, and all weapons as represented are only approximations (very rough, frequently not 100% accurate approximations at that) of real world weapons.
Did a hoplite spear have greater reach than the short swords of the same era? Sure. Did they have that much more reach than a claymore (two-handed sword)? I'm not so sure about that. Yet neither are reach weapons.
Pikes are reach weapons because they were commonly used by a second line of defenders, with the pikemen attacking over the shield of their fellow soldier while they stand safely in the second rank.
Nobody's stopping you from adding a new longspear category of course, I just agree that there's not much justification for it.
OoftaMeg wrote:
LupusRegalis wrote:
I don't see the point.
During Combat, two adjacent Opponents are more or less moving into and out of each others personal space as they make their attacks and react to their opponents actions.
It's the whole point of the abstraction, as two characters standing perfectly in the middle of their squares and not moving couldn't reach their opponent except with weapons longer than 5 feet. Even a greatsword would just barely reach their target, and not with any force or momentum to do damage. Even moving around, but limited to the area inside that 5ft square, if an opponent moved to the rear of their square and just stood there than a character wielding anything less than a weapon 4-5ft in length could not actually hit them. So we come back to the abstraction that two adjacent opponents are actually maneuvering in and out of each others personal space.
If the abstraction of combat means that the character has to move in to hit an adjacent opponent using their fists, dagger or similar weapon then why would it not do so for other weapons?!
In such a case, a character wielding a 7 to 8ft polearm, whether using one or two hands, is definitely able to reach across an adjacent square and attack an opponent within that next range. The weapon has the length required, and moving within that 5ft would allow a character so armed to threaten a further square. It's simply understood that the point of origin is the 5ft square the character currently occupies. A character wielding any weapon of less length could not do so, and so we don't have to worry about greatsword wielding warriors 'ghoststepping' across an adjacent square to reach the next without actually making a move (though I have seen 'Lunge' feats/maneuvers that allow such attacks without moving the point of origin).
LupusRegalis wrote:
LupusRegalis wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
It's worth noting that reach allows you to attack an opponent when there is a creature occupying the 5' space between you. So if the weapon isn't long enough to effectively stab, chop, or otherwise pummel someone when swung or poked over your buddy's head, then it isn't long enough to have D&D reach.
ChrisCarlson wrote:
I have thought of giving the spear and trident the ability to attack with reach with disadvantage on the attack roll. It would give it a bit more flavor. I haven't tried it out yet.
What should be done with the trident though, right now it is just a martial spear.
Cerius wrote:
I agree with EzechielDantan that a feat would probably work best. Only those trained and dedicated to the spear should gain this benefit, thus the cost of a feat. Potentially a fighter sub-class would work as well. As far as fixing the trident, perhaps having it grant either a bonus to the DC's or disadvantage on the saves of maneuvers.
EzechielDantan wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
If you are looking at ways to 'weaken' the ability/feat; you could make the extra range attack not get Str modifier... the idea being you are over extending yourself to be able to tag someone.
DungeonKrusher wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
Cerius wrote:
Slightly related question: Should the Polearm Mastery feat apply to a spear? Or to phrase it another way, why does the Polearm Mastery feat apply to a quarterstaff?
P.S. SwordofSpirit, I like that idea for a trident.
Greenstone.Walker wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
EzechielDantan wrote:
I wish they had been a little more creative with the versatile property.
Spear could have been 1d6 piercing, thrown, versatile (reach).
If they did that, then they could have made the trident 1d8 piercing, thrown, versatile (reach) and it would have had a decent niche.
DungeonKrusher wrote:
Proudworks wrote: