Hey guys/gals, here's the deal. I have a buddy who I love dearly, but he is totally killing my fun vibe for 5e with his over-the-top character. The DM is currently letting him continue for the moment, and it is seriously bothering the fire out of me. He's a lifelong friend so I will have to handle it with kid-gloves, but for the moment I need the community's help.
Short answer is he is trying to abuse the whole druid/monk deal. Honestly, I cannot remember what all he has gotten away with in a single round but an example of how over the top his rounds are:
Cast Jump on himself before combat:
rd 1: Transformed into an ape, jumped 45 feet, and cast Shillelagh once he landed.
rd 2:Attacked with a staff in ape form twice, THEN used his fist as a bonus action? or something.
Yeah... basically he is attacking 3 times in one round and we are level 3. Being able to jump 45 feet virtually let him single handely take on the (I'll be careful not to give out *spoilers*) things on the cliff in book one with difficult terrain.
He is wildshaping into an Ape/Gorilla and still using his staff... man I don't honestly know what kind of BS he is doing.
Anyway, I am not here just to vent, but look for advice from the community, not so much on how to approach the group about it, but what the actual rules would allow. Even if it is a RAW vs RAI give me your feedback please. His character is so broken the rest of the group might as well not be involved in any combat.
Can he use a staff proficiently in wildshape? Even if he chooses an Ape.
If he can, can he get 3 attacks in one round? If no, how many can he get?
If he attacks, let's say twice with a staff, can he still use a jump action?
Does he get the last fist attack as a bonus action, so he can attack with the staff once, jump 45 feet to the next target and get a bonus fist attack?
Thank you all for the help. Like I said he's friend and I don't want to sound whiny, but man... honestly, combat is completely boring and I am finding it harder and harder not to roll my eyes when it is his turn. Hey maybe it's just a personal issue that I need to suck up and deal with... who knows?
Thanks!
Cody
EDIT 8/14/15:
So after more than a months worth of research along with the help of this thread (along with disuccsing this with my friend who admitted he found this thread while we were going back and forth on the topic) here are the magical answers for any who this comes up for in the months/years to come. ***Or so we believe
Ground work:
First we'll look at the druid's wildshape. The Ape's stat block in the MM states something interesting. Under actions, his attack is not an attack action where he make two seperate attacks but rather an action called multiattack. This is the most important part of the equation. The Multiattack action is NOT an attack action. It is a completely seperate & unrelated action. So this tells us he cannot use his staff to take two attacks in a round. Period. Now he CAN use his staff twice in a round once he gets to Monk5/Druid2 and gains the extra attack feat. This would in fact allow him to attack twice in a round. ****No one is 100% whether a monk/druid in wildshape could proficiently wield a staff. This seems to be a case by case decision the GM needs to make. Though many can argue the old golden rule fun > story > rules as allowing this does not break the character. As a personal note we decided the fists were better regardless and just flavored it as he was using the staff****
Becuase of the multiattack being specific to an ape's fist, in order for him to get two attacks off he HAD to use the ape's fists not the staff. This threw Shillelagh out the window. So we basically have a Druid in Wildshape attacking just like any wildshape druid would do. So where does the monk come in?
The Monk gains a bonus unarmed strike at level 1. This only works for 2 things unarmed strikes and monk weapons. Well the Ape's stat block clearly states the fists are a +5 to hit bludgeoning weapon NOT an unamred strike. But wait!!!! The PHB errata changes this. It allows the fists weapons to be counted as unarmed strikes. Hurray! But Wait!!!!
Rereading the Monk's ability to use the bonus unarmed strike it starts with "When you use the Attack action..." pg78 PHB. This is definitive; 'the' and the capital A in 'Attack' when refecencing the action makes it formal. AKA not a multiattack which is a seperate action. So the Ape's multiattack does in fact NOT qualify to trigger the Monk's bonus unarmed strike even after the Errata changed wording on what qualifies as an unarmed strike.
Phew....
TLDR
Multiattacks are not attack actions
Apes MAY be able to use a staff if a GM wants it to
A staff/other weapon including unarmed strikes may NOT be substitued in for the ape's fist attacks
The ape's multiattack can be considered an unarmed strike (per PHB errata)
The ape's multiattack as an unarmed strike does NOT trigger the Monk's bonus unarmed strike
I assume he's a variant human Druid 2/Monk 1 with the Polearm Master Feat?
Let's look at what you can do in a round:
1 action
1 possible bonus action
move up to your speed
1 reaction
Here's what he's doing:
Jump 45 feet
Wild Shape: action or bonus action
Cast Shillelagh: bonus action
Attack: action
Attack using Polearm Master: bonus action
Martial Arts unarmed strike: bonus action
So right away he's getting 4 bonus actions, of which he's only allowed 1. That's why you're frustrated.
As for the jumping, Jump only lasts 1 minute, how long before combat does he cast it? Either way, you can't move over your speed on your turn even if you jump. A standing long jump for the Ape with Jump cast on them will be 24 feet, a running one (move at least 10 feet first) will be 48 feet. Regardless, the Ape can only move up to 30 feet unless they take the Dash action.
As a DM I would allow the Ape to use a staff and unarmed strike with Martial Arts due to the physiological similarities and the rule of cool. But for the multiple bonus actions goin on, that's a definite no.
Other than the excess Bonus Actions, a Druid cannot cast spells while in Wildshape until level 17. He would have to cast (as a bonus action) Shillelagh before Wildshaping.
Danny_Montanny wrote:
Unless I am misremembering, there is also no option to cast any spells (at low levels) whilst in Wild Shape, so either the character needs to revert to normal form (another bonus action?) or is unable to cast the spell.
I'd agree with letting an ape use the monk weapon proficiencies (you maintain the same class features while in animal form, presumably including proficiencies) and letting them use the Martial Arts for a bonus action attack. Don't see where you get three attacks from though at that level: if using natural attacks, that wouldn't fit the criteria for using Martial Arts, and as Donny highlights, most of the other options for extra attacks already use your bonus action.
Outside of whatever liberties are being taken with the rules, consider that rather than trying to make your friend's character worse, you might try to make your own character better. Because honestly, your buddy's character sounds like an absolute blast. I'd totally dig that as the DM and as a fellow player. If there is a legitimate spotlight sharing issue, however, talk to the player and DM directly and politely, explain the trouble you're having, and ask for their help in correcting it.
CraggleRock wrote:
iserith wrote:
dakotahorn wrote:
dakotahorn wrote:
I'd let the monkey staff go. If a chimp had the intelligence of a human, you bet they'd be able to whip a staff around with great proficiency. Plus, you have to assume the Druid/Monk has been practicing a lot to do just that. Would I say the same for any other animal combination? Maybe. It doesn't really change the game mechanics, just certain people's interpretation of, "you can't do that!"
As for the actions:
If he cast Shillelagh before he Wild Shaped, sure. He can't attack twice with his staff and once with his unarmed strike until he gets the Extra Attack feature. The Jump is still off, but that's easily taken care of.
I get that this guy seems weird to you, and you're entitle to that. If your buddy likes it, that's his right. So long as he observes the rules when it comes to his actions, there's nothing to complain about. The funny thing is, I conceptualized this exact same character (not the Jump thing, however) when the PHB first came out, and I thought it'd be a blast to play.
Where does the staff come from? When you Wildshape, what happens to your equipment/held weapons?
Ok, I get that some people are just "whatever is fun is ok".
I disagree. Limits on characters, overcoming those obstacles is part of the challenge of the game. If you just turn on "cheat mode" where does it stop?
If everyone agrees to the cheese that's a different story, but having one uber-powerful character while everyone else is playing by the rules is no fun.
ArialBlack wrote:
ArialBlack wrote:
I very much doubt that the friend is trying to cheat (though it's possible). It's probably just a misunderstanding of the rules and bonus actions. Regardless, the DM is letting the player do it. Bring up the points we made to both the player and the DM and I'm sure you'll straighten it out.
Danny_Montanny wrote:
You will, of course, probably look like a d-bag for bringing it up though even if the player is acting outside the expected rules for bonus actions or whatever. So there's that. Be as diplomatic as possible and try not to sound all "You can't triple stamp a double stamp!" Definitely don't start off by saying "Well, actually..." either. A lot of nerds don't realize that comes off pretty badly to other people.
Ok ok ok ok ok so....
Here's what I THINK I know.
He is a druid 2/monk 1, which means:
He CAN pick ape as his wildshape via Combat Wildshape
He CANNOT use anything related to Ki at this point
Now, Ape says very specifically "Multiattack: The ape makes two fist attacks." - Page 317 MM.
So throwing out all things flurry of blows related as he does not have access to Ki, he should be able to make 2 FIST attacks, followed up by a bonus unarmed strike that he would get from Martial Arts as part of the Monk class?
Does that sound correct to everyone?
Also, because the ape specifically says "Multiattack: The ape makes two fist attacks.", would that mean he could NOT use a staff to take advantage of the apes multi attacks?
However, he COULD attack ONCE with the staff in ape form, taking advantage of the Shilleleigh bonus, AND still get his bonus unarmed strike just as he could do so in human form?
Correct? Yes/No?
Martial Arts requires using unarmed or monk weapons for your attack action. Now this is maybe getting into a rather grey area of whether the two fist attacks count as unarmed, and DM mileage may vary. I would rule against it, given the attack line on the ape stat block lists it as a melee weapon attack, and there is a possibility that a Multiattack action may not specifically be equated to taking an Attack Action.
However, he COULD attack ONCE with the staff in ape form, taking advantage of the Shilleleigh bonus, AND still get his bonus unarmed strike just as he could do so in human form?
I would say yes on both accounts. Though the second assumes he doesn't also have Polearm Master for the bonus action staff attack instead of the Martial Arts unarmed strike.
Although, Martial Arts does require you to take the Attack action to be able to get the bonus action unarmed strike. Multiattack is not Attack, but I think you're just splitting hairs at that point.
dakotahorn wrote:
CraggleRock wrote:
Danny_Montanny wrote:
Some DMs rule that a creature using Natural Weapons is the same as an Unarmed Strike. That may also be an issue.
I think part of the problem is that a lot of abilities become shorthanded on Monster stat blocks. Multitattack is used for any mupliple of ways a PC could normally get extra attacks (two-weapon fightting, extra attack, etc.). For example, the Ape probably is considered dual weilding fists to get Multiattack (with Feat support/Fighting Style support). When combinding the two different design concepts, things start to get wierd and a little out of balance. Here is how I would rule:
1. Multiattack does not qualify Martial Arts (MA) bonus attack.
2. A single Fist attack can qualify for MA, and gets any property a normal Monk unarmed attack would get (ie, treated as Magic)
3. MA uses the Monk's unarmed damage die.
4. When he gets it, FoB uses Monk's unarmed damage die, but can be used with Mutliattack.
5. Using a staff works, but should be equivalent to being used by non-wildshaped Druid as far as number of attacks go (including Feats and Shil.)
Coredump00 wrote:
I'm guessing the player came up with a story as to why he knows what an ape looks like if you are not in a campaign that would have wild apes around.
One part that needs to be decided by the DM is if the monks proficiency in staff is still as potent when shape changed.
The rules say:
"You retain the benefit of any features from your class,
race, or other source and can use them if the new
form is physically capable of doing so." -PHB Pg. 67
That should mean that a druid shape changed into a monkey should be able to pick pockets but not if he was a bear. It's easy to imagine an ape swinging a staff around, but does his training in the weapon still help him when his body/hands have different proportions and weight distribution? Could he also use his weapon profiencies as a bear if he bound the staff to his bear head?
I'm still not sure why he would even want to use his staff as an ape rather than using the double attack with fists for 1d6+3. If he's trying to say he gets two staff attacks as an ape then he's wrong because the ape gets two 'fist' attacks, not two weapon attacks.
I'm also guessing he's using the ape fist damage instead of his monk unarmed strike damage for his monk bonus unarmed strike. The bonus attack is an unarmed strike attack (1d4+str at his level) and not a bonus fist attack. The same principle means he can't get two bonus bite attacks as a bear.
I'm also not sure he's using his jump spell corectly. He can triple his jump distance so with an ape str of 16 he can do a running jump of 48 feet (with a 10 foot run) or a standing long jump of 24 feet. Each foot of jump costs a foot of movement so he could run 10 feet and jump 48 (triple his normal jump distance of 16) feet to his first target. That uses up 26 feet of his 30 feet (as an ape) movement. He could then use up his last 4 feet of movement to do a standing long jump of 12 feet.
It looks like he's trying to tweak the rules to overpower his character.
In Summary:
- He can't cast while he's an ape, so he would need to cast both jump and shelaleigh before becoming an ape and they each last one minute.
- He would not get two staff attacks as an ape because apes get two fist attacks. He's better off not casting shilaley and using the natural attacks.
- He could not use his ape fist damage as his unarmed strike damage because they are not the same thing.
- He needs to remember that each foot jumped uses a foot of movement. Keep in mind that his movement is tripled while jumping.
The fight above should have gone:
Before combat (if he was able to) cast Jump and Shillelagh and maybe shapechange into ape.
Round 1: Run 10 feet and jump 35 feet to close the 45 foot gap to first target (22 feet of movement is used up), Make one quarterstaff attack as an action for 1d8+3 damage if it hits. If that target is dead he can then do a standing jump up to 24 feet with his remaining movement to another target and then use his bonus action for unarmed attack for 1d4+3 damage (he can make two unarmed attacks if spending a Kai point for flurry of blows).
My guess, from not being there, is that he is confused about the 'one bonus action only' restriction. I think most of the issue goes away with that.
And ... (while we're piling on - not)
If you assume a Surprise round party success
and the bbegs are all surprised ...
... is still only One round of "free" buffing,
on the clock, otherwise stuff has to be justified.
Say like: a Wizard casts Mage Armor at the start
of the day, or a mid level Warlock casts Hex.
you said you were a bard? Ham it up.
instead of worrying about how dude goes Donkey Kong ape crap on the bad guys, make him more powerful with your bard spells and abilities. then no matter how well he is doing, a portion of that effectiveness is coming from you.
I used to get upset that some "fighter" was doing all sorts of assassin archer magic stuff around my ranger. But when it came time to fight Tiamat, and the cards were on the table, i found the most gratifying thing was just letting them know how they could get more attacks per round, rather than wishing for them to fail. 5th editition has level caps, making it a cooperative game in the long run. We are part of a unit that tries to accomplish goals together, because unlike AD&D or 3e Epic, 5th ed rules don't really let us go all Sepiroth on the bad guys.
CraggleRock wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Without knowing about all the dev tweets here's how i think most DM's would initially determine how to handle the situation.
1. The apes fist attack seems close enough to being unarmed that many DM's will rule it as equivalent to an unarmed strike and thus the fist attack can trigger a bonus action attack from martial arts.
2. A fist attack has it's own damage and attack formulas so use that for the fist attack.
3. Multi-Attack triggers bonus action abilities needing attack action due to it's similarity to the attack action.
4. the bonus attack from martial arts must be an unarmed attack and since we already ruled the fist attack as un unarmed strike then the ape can use the fist attack for his bonus action attack.
Conclusion: We have established it's relatively easy for the DM to make a few straightforward and right seeming rulings that allow the druid/monk to make 3 fist attacks in a round.
***Note after this it only takes 1 more logical seeming decision to get to an ape attacking twice with a staff and then making a fist attack.
5. The multi attack of the ape is basically equivalent to the attack action and extra attack feature. This is prehaps the hardest of the reasons to justify since after looking at a few monsters it's obvious multiattack is something different than a generic extra attack. But honestly does it really matter if you have an ape attacking with 3 fist attacks a turn or 2 quarterstaff and 1 fist attack a turn?
The jump spell should allow for a 45 ft jump.
Jump: You touch a creature. The creature’s jump distance is tripled until the spell ends.
So basically using only easily justifiable rulings:
pre combat: cast jump
Round 1: transform into ape and jump 45 ft
Round 2: multi attack with fists twice and bonus action attack with fist once.
So honestly besides a few minor things most of what he did could easily be ruled as legal. That doesn't mean it's the only ruling one could come up with but it's definetely a justifiable ruling.
Just curious what is the ape's fist attack damage?
FrogReaver wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
strider13x wrote:
I think the question regarding distance with the jump spell depends on whether you "pay" movement for your jump before or after the spell's tripling effect is considered.
For example, if you would normally cover 10 feet with a long jump, there are two possibilities:
- Pay 10 feet of movement for the standard jump, then triple the distance.
- Triple the distance, then pay 30 feet of movement for the multiplied jump.
It's not really about specific vs. general, just whether jump's multiplication is applied before or after the movement cost is paid.
Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:
OoftaMeg wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
Small bump for feedback on my edit.
Personally I'd sugest just saying to the DM/group something like "we handled that wrong" then explain the rules in questiion (as others have mentioned seemes the bonus action limits may have been forgotten). It implies the entire group misunderstood (unless it was mentioned at the time) and not an individual, and makes everyone aware of the way the rules should work. The GM is still free to overrule it however and allow it anyway. If they do go nuts on bonus actions 